[Law] Eng Ireland 29 decisions in 28 minutes..

Butters


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I posted this on Facebook and got quite a bit of feedback.

Would appreciate the opinion of experts. Not saying all of my points are right, but I am fairly sure some of them are...

Have done it with MM:SS against the game clock..

Many congratulations to Ireland winning the Grand Slam on Paddy’s Day at Twickenham. Not been won there since the early 80’s so well done. I watched it live and didn’t get the benefit of replays/ commentary although I did have ref link so knew Nigel was in Gardner’s ear all game. I felt at the time that every single 50/50 went against England. I have just pained myself watching the 1st half again with the remote to hand. My analysis of the Gardner’s game is below. 29 ‘comments’ in 28 minutes.... not sour grapes, the best team won. But the first try was a knock on, second forward pass, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] possible knock on. 21-5 at half time was always going to be too much for England.

4:20. Penalty is given against Farrell for late hit. In real time and slow mo he looks totally committed.
4:22. Daly catches ball 6 metres from touchline. Pen is given to Ireland 15m from touch giving better angle. Owens doesn’t say a word.
4:50. Sexton nicks another 2 metres when taking the pen. He does that with every single kick. Should be stopped.
5:47. Try given. Knock on by Kearney. Ref doesn’t ask TMO to look at that bit specifically. Hartley asks him and ref says the TMO has cleared that. He hadn’t. And Kearney also plays Watson in the air. Says they are dynamic which they are but Kearney plays Watson without the ball which makes him drop it. Watch Watson’s left hand.
8:33. Penalty to England. Murray slows down the quick take. Not a word from Owens. Right in front of him.
9:27 line out sacked. Ireland 6 does not enter from the back foot. Another pen England not given. Owens not a word.
10:09 first scrum. Sinckler has the upper hand on Healy so Healy disengages rather than give a pen.
10:47. Ball fed by Murray into the 2nd row. Should be a Free kick England.
11:15. Penalty against Itoje for offside. Not seen by ref, called by Owens watch his hand in his pocket. Fairly petty. Was it material? Just have a word. Highly pernickety by Owens. But he ignores all the other stuff.
11:29. Penalty committed on 22m line. Look where Sexton takes it from. Cannot help himself. 2 metres every time.
12:00. England line out told to move. One warning. 1 second later free kick given to Ireland.
13:18. Farrell kicks into Haskell head. Gives attacking scrum to Ireland for accidental offside. This is correct, but Ireland would have probably preferred to play on as Daly had three players on him. Laws about this are:
A player is accidentally offside if the player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate who is carrying the ball. Only if the offending team gains an advantage should play stop. Sanction: Scrum.
14:53 Murray’s put in is a joke.
17:37. Ireland blatantly collapse the scrum. Gardner resets not award a pen to England after speaking to both front rows.
18:35. Petty push by Murray on Wigglesworth. Then nicks the ball when it’s not out. Then a cheap shot by Irish 7 on Wigglesworth. Knee to his back.
18:46. Gardner is basically making it up.
19:26 Healy told to move from offside at maul but no advantage given.
19:28 Furlong flying run leading with head into maul.
20:21. Sinckler perfect jackal positon. First offence Ireland/ Sexton holding on. Then Robshaw knocks Sinckler so he is not supporting his own weight. Penalty given to Ireland not England.
21:40. Would love to know what useful gem Nigel is giving to Gardner.
22:37. Look where the ball goes out and where Ireland take the line out from.
23:13 I don’t know what footage the TMO checked but the last pass from Aki to Stander is a yard forward. Look at the lines on the pitch.
24:50 Best slows down England ball for England illegally. Told to get his hands off by ref but has taken the momentum.
25:01. Ref clearly saw Daly fumble the ball. Decided it went backwards.
25:06 Jaco Peyper overrules him. Watch him turn the mic on.
25:25. No arms at all by Aki on Daly. Led with shoulder to head. How is that not a yellow? Then head onto head is allowed????
27:05. Penalty against Ireland 5. How is that not a yellow card. Cynical penalty 2 yards from his try line.
27:15. Murray steals the ball again to prevent a quick tap.
28:04. Third penalty in a minute. Driving maul was flying. Has to be a penalty try. Gives the yellow card to O’Mahony but should have been 7 points.
29:04. 100% knocked on by Murray at the back of the line out.
29:40 shows angle where Kearney knocks on first try.

I had enough there.
 

Marc Wakeham


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So no errors in England's favour but 29 errors in favour of Ireland?

Do you want some viniger for those chips on your shoulder?
 

crossref


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I thought AG had an ok game, 6/10 , but he is relatively new
.. the Oki tackle on Daly clearly should have been a card , AG leapt too firmly into the dialogue with the TMO leading with PK only, shutting down the TMO a bit . Mistake in Ireland's favour
- The accidental offside was a brain fart, as discussed. Mistake in England s favour

I didn't detect any bias or one sidedness at all

He wasn't as confident , and didn't seem as secure in his decision making as he needs to at this level . But that will grow . He is a good ref and getting better
 

crossref


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One area I do agree with the OP .. Nigel Owens is an absolutely *terrible* AR , forever putting his oar in and .. IMO .. undermining the ref. It's not the first time we have seen it. I bet poor AG heart sank when he lost MVW and got NO instead

But then I have always thought NO is overestimated
 

Butters


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So no errors in England's favour but 29 errors in favour of Ireland?

Do you want some viniger for those chips on your shoulder?

No, there was one error in England's favour. When Haskell inadvertently headed it and Daly got smashed by 3 Irish... I would have let that run for a few more seconds...

No vinegar required... the best team won the Championship but they are by no means one of the greatest. And I just felt there was something wrong when I was watching it live... then reviewed it on a sober Sunday and those are my findings.. I am not saying anyone was biased just that England didn't get the rub of the 'green' 28 out of 29 times!!!
 

Marc Wakeham


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Keep saying it it just gets funnier by the minute!
 

CrouchTPEngage


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Just spotted something:
Specifically to your point:
4:22 Daly catches ball 6 metres from touchline. Pen is given to Ireland 15m from touch giving better angle. Owens doesn’t say a word.

Can't see anything wrong there. If its a late charge on kicker then the place for the penalty should not be nearer than 15m from the touch-line. Or am I missing something ?
So you shouldnt give the mark for the penalty 6m from touchline.
 

Decorily

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Just spotted something:
Specifically to your point:
4:22 Daly catches ball 6 metres from touchline. Pen is given to Ireland 15m from touch giving better angle. Owens doesn’t say a word.

Can't see anything wrong there. If its a late charge on kicker then the place for the penalty should not be nearer than 15m from the touch-line. Or am I missing something ?
So you shouldnt give the mark for the penalty 6m from touchline.

Surely correct to give Mark @15m!

Edit. But then I am Irish!!
 

SimonSmith


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Christ.
We have the Scottish complainer, and now this.

if there are specific incidents that need to be discussed (accidental offside, perhaps being a good example), then raise.

Anything that alleges or hints at one sided or biased refereeing will get binned and the poster warned.

MOD
 

Pedro

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biases.jpg :deadhorse::deadhorse:
 

Pedro

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I've gone through a dozen of these with the replay on slow mo.
There are about 6 points which seem to be accurate. The rest are either common throughout the game (annoying yes, but consistently reffed as far as I can tell e.g. extra couple yards at a PK or L.O., not straight feeds at the scrum), or just a purely biased view on the match. I'm tempted to g through the footage and reply with all the times the rub went against Ireland - but I just can't be bothered.

I though Gardner did well with what was a difficult fixture, but seemed to lack confidence sometimes (possible due to having NO in his ear constantly).
 

Butters


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Pedro, thank you for your reply. If 6 out of 12 are 'accurateish', that's not too bad. At no point was I saying that Gardner or the AR's were biased. Ireland were were the stand out team in the tournament and deserved to win. I was just baffled by many decisions made and wanted some clearance by more Senior Refs on here. For example, I have learnt that after a late hit, the PK is given on the 15m line if it bounces between there and the touchline. I thought it was where it landed unless it landed in touch and then you go 15m in. I have edited my post and have tried not to sound biased or bitter... there are a lot of genuine refereeing questions in there where I would like us to ignore the teams involved...
 

Butters


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Apologies – I am the author and unable to delete or edit my original post.

I have gone back through the original points and consolidated to the ones below… some are specifics and others are overall game management questions. I want to learn from other refs how they see each of these points. I am not crying sour grapes just looking to understand if the members of this site saw it differently to AG. I think for a game of this occasion AG was the most junior of the 3 officials and seemed to lack confidence and because of that NO and JP tried to put their arms round him.. I would rather not mention Ireland or England to avoid any national bias.

4:20. Penalty is given against Farrell for late hit. In real time and slow mo I think Farrell looks committed. If Farrell had pulled out to the right, Kearney could easily have stepped him/ dummied and gone.


4:50 & 11:29. Is everyone happy with Sexton starting his run up to kick at the mark and kicking it from 2 metres forward? Should we pull him up for that?

5:47. Try given. Assuming the TMO didn’t see the angle from behind the posts, potentially showing the touch from Kearney, does the tug from Kearney on Watson’s hand prevent him from catching the ball?

10:09 First scrum. Is this an early engage by Sinckler or does Healy infringe by stepping away?

10:47 & 14:53. The put in has been clamped down on this year… does Murray meet this year’s criteria?

11:15. Penalty against Itoje for offside. Not seen by ref, called by Owens watch his hand in his pocket. Was it material?

12:00. England line out told to move. One warning. 1 second later free kick given to Ireland. Would you not give them more time to adjust?

13:18. Farrell kicks into Haskell head. Gives attacking scrum to Ireland for accidental offside. This is correct, but Ireland would have probably preferred to play on as Daly had three players on him.

17:37. Scrum collapse – is this a reset or a penalty?

19:26 Healy told to move from offside at maul but no advantage given. Is this a PK?

20:21. Sinckler in jackal position. Loses momentum because Sexton is holding on. Then Robshaw knocks Sinckler so he is not supporting his own weight. Penalty to Ireland or England?


23:13 Does the TMO specifically look at the forward pass?

24:50 Does Best slow down the England ball illegally? Told to get his hands off by ref but is only warned and has taken the momentum....


25:01. Ref clearly saw Daly fumble the ball. Decided it went backwards. Jaco Peyper overrules him. Watch him turn the mic on. Do we want AR’s visibly contradicting refs when they have seen it? The pen by Itoje at 11:15 was not seen by the ref so NO was good to advise him and let AG make his own decision. But this is different… the ref had seen it and made his own decision and then got overruled.

25:25. Led with shoulder to head and eventually ended up with Head on Head. Old days, pen at worst, nowadays I have seen cards given for far less.

27:05. Penalty against Ireland 5. Would you give a yellow card? Cynical penalty 2 yards from your own try line.

27:15. Second time Murray steals the ball to prevent a quick tap – every scrum half in the world does this but at this level is there anything else they can do? It’s not worthy of a card, you can’t go ten metres further... It’s a FK for time-wasting although you could probably give a PK for ungentlemanly… but I think it was a PK anyway… tough one…

28:04. Third penalty in a minute. Driving maul was flying. Would you give a penalty try? Gives the yellow card to O’Mahony but should it have been 7 points as well or was it one or the other? But if AG gave the Pen Try then would he have to give a yellow card as well?
 

didds

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I think the Aki head clash is worthy of a few posts' discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zhln8ExWI&feature=youtu.be&t=2127

The accidental offside is being debated.

We can discuss the angels on a pin head of the knock on (or not) on both the 1st and 3rd tries...

There is an interesting point made about the pull on watson's arm in the first try. I think that's worthy of debate - if only eg to explain why it is immaterial/not an issue/etc. I confess I hadn't noticed it until now but there is a definite pull on watson's arm (whether deliberate is another thing).

There's stuff in theer worth picking out.

didds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqwHJaXjSs0&feature=youtu.be&t=23
 

crossref


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Too many points Butters !
And some discussed already eg the accident offside has a thread of it's own

Pick your best one .. start a new thread with that one, and link to the video at the right time .. and you will get a response .. we love that sort of stuff , but few will sit down to hunt and find 27 different incidents
 

L'irlandais

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Hi Butters,
Welcome to the forum. Crossref is right, pick one or two of your strongest arguments, make a seperate discussion thread for each and time stamp the video for us. Sexton never used to steal a yard or two at penalties, until he got R’OG as a kicking coach at Racing 92. That is a trait of ‘O Gara’s and yeah the officials should keep an eye on such things. Especially since they have a team of 4 at this level.

In the meantime, have a read of this:
The influence of the referee in rugby (23 Oct 2011)

[LAWS]Rugby presents a unique challenge in that the referee is required to make a specific decision about a contested tackle almost 200 times a match (once every 30 seconds), and this*decision is multi-dimensional, instantaneous and open to interpretation.‪..‬[/LAWS]

Consider that a typical match has about 170 rucks (or contests for the ball in a tackle) , and you realize that there are probably 100 decisions (because not all are contested the same way) where the referee must interpret, in a split second, a dizzying array of laws, and where each decision has implications for what follows.


Bear in mind, some of these decisions are to NOT blow the whistle, that is to let play continue because the infringement was not material, or the non-infringing side can accrue an advantage by playing on.
 
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SimonSmith


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Cognitive bias: Sexton steals yards. I watched all the matches this weekend. Most every kicker did it.

Is your argument that it was only Sexton? Did you look at Farrell?
 

ChrisR

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4:20. Penalty is given against Farrell for late hit. In real time and slow mo I think Farrell looks committed. If Farrell had pulled out to the right, Kearney could easily have stepped him/ dummied and gone.
This is a split second decision but the ball had gone and no attempt was made to avoid or mitigate the collision. Correct call.
4:50 & 11:29. Is everyone happy with Sexton starting his run up to kick at the mark and kicking it from 2 metres forward? Should we pull him up for that?
Addressed by Simon. Annoying, nothing more.
5:47. Try given. Assuming the TMO didn’t see the angle from behind the posts, potentially showing the touch from Kearney, does the tug from Kearney on Watson’s hand prevent him from catching the ball?
​Debatable event, call made by TMO would have been my call. Discussed elsewhere should you wish to comment further on this.
10:47 & 14:53. The put in has been clamped down on this year… does Murray meet this year’s criteria?
Clamped down? Bwahahaha, they just modified the law to ensure that squint feeds are the norm.
11:15. Penalty against Itoje for offside. Not seen by ref, called by Owens watch his hand in his pocket. Was it material?
Possibly not material coz he missed the ball by a hair but he was sure offside.
12:00. England line out told to move. One warning. 1 second later free kick given to Ireland. Would you not give them more time to adjust
Here you want a second warning but you'd FK Farrell on the kick? OK, but it's the sum of these stupid things that cost them dearly.
13:18. Farrell kicks into Haskell head. Gives attacking scrum to Ireland for accidental offside. This is correct, but Ireland would have probably preferred to play on as Daly had three players on him.
You are dead wrong on this and so was the referee to the detriment of the Irish and 7 points. See the thread on it and read the law.
17:37. Scrum collapse – is this a reset or a penalty?

The point you've made is that England had some bad luck some of which they brought on themselves so at this point I'm moving on.
 

menace


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Anything that alleges or hints at one sided or biased refereeing will get binned and the poster warned.

MOD

Sorry but I simply do not agree with this threat Simon and think it's beyond your scope as a Mod.

Everyone has a right to raise whatever it is they want and even if it is an accusation of cheating or bias why cant they express that opinion? That in itself is not necessarily offensive or inappropriate.

Christ! a great many opinions from refs on here skate on the line of bias about a refs performance and it's only thinly veiled as something else.

I think we are all able to decipher those that are making accusations of bias without the need for a mod to 'cleanse' others opinions for us. We can all decide independently when to bin someones opinion.

Unfortunately some refs are cheats...we shouldnt hide from that fact. Im not saying that top tier refs are...but I dont think we have to close ranks when an every day punter wants to call it out that we shut them down or out without the benefit of having them 'prove it'. Let the discussion be had.
 
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