[Law] England v France - 24/4/2921

[didds]

Couple of points from last weekend's Eng v Fra women's 6N game I thought worth a chat about...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiHt_gWJoqw&t=2950s
played on, no To4 response at all. Marginal ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiHt_gWJoqw&t=3315s
again, no To4 interaction... do you (not) see what I (did not) see ?

didds

 

[Jz558]

The first incident was, as you say, marginal but in my opinion didnt go past the horizontal so play on. Essentially though the tackler wasnt in control of the outcome. If the England 8 twists once her feet are in the air she potentially lands on her head or neck and then it becomes a sending off. Silly of the tackler to put themselves in that position.

Second one I saw at the time and didnt think it reflected well on the player or officials. Officially incorrectly taken penalty and should be a retake. That said I'd be loathe to reward a player who either doesnt know the laws or was trying to pull a fast one. I assume she wouldnt have admitted the incorrect penalty take had she scored but I may be doing her an injustice.

 

[didds]

Pretty much my take on both scenarios.

I think that #9 in scenario 2 knew exactly what she was doing. She is seemigly a bit antsy after her subsequent chip ahead went stright into touch and appeared to be grumpy about something ... I did wonder if she was trying to point out she shoud have the PK again as she hadnt taken it correctly.

 

[Jz558]

I cant really work out what the 9 was protesting about. Looking at it again though the ref would be within her rights to award the scrum under 20.11 although I'm not sure thats equitable. I'd be inclined to think it was a rush of blood to the head and call it back to be retaken although my decision would probably be based on how much grief I had received from the 9 throughout the game (not sure international refs have that luxury though)

 

[Flish]

Was she claiming not 10 by white maybe? Otherwise no idea

 

[Camquin]

I think she might have believed she was continuing to play under advantage - so expect that as no advantage they would get the penalty.

 

[didds]

bah. i didnt travel forward in time by 900 years - apologies!

 

[thepercy]

For the scrum PK does the #8 kick the ball through the mark (or behind it) after the whistle?

 

[didds]

For the scrum PK does the #8 kick the ball through the mark (or behind it) after the whistle?

I watched it again to "make sure".

if the #8 did it is certainly not at all clear and obvious, and i'd be very confident in saying she didnt. If anything she is still, at the whistle, trying to control the ball under her left foot unsuccessfully as the french scrum moves to quickly away from the ball.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'd ping the tackle as dangerous. You don't neeed to go beyond the "H" for it to be so.

For the the PK. I think she thought or was trying to imply she was playing advantage. Either way it was not advantge and it should have gone back for the incorectly taken pk. I guess missed or not "clear and obvious"

 

[Phil E]

For the PK it looks like the AR spotted it as you can see her left hand go to her radio button as the 9 runs towards her.

 

[Camquin]

Watching it again, the ref clearly awards the penalty and the French play on. There is no kick, the nine picks up the ball now clear of the scrum and goes.

Now in the professional men's game, she could have signalled advantage even though that is against the laws as written.

The sanction for an incorrectly taken penalty is a scrum. But the French player did not bounce the ball off her knee, when they knew they had to kick it. There is as far as I am aware, no penalty for not stopping play. So, the equitable thing is to make them take it again.

I am sure it was discussed in the post match debrief.

 

[Dickie E]

The sanction for an incorrectly taken penalty is a scrum.

Genuine question. Can you give me a law reference for that?

 

[SimonSmith]

Genuine question. Can you give me a law reference for that?

Ooh me sir! Me sir!

20.2

 

[Jz558]

Genuine question. Can you give me a law reference for that?

20.2 - Kick taken from the wrong place - retake
20.11- Incorrectly taken kick - scrum.

 

[Phil E]

20.2 - Kick taken from the wrong place - retake
20.11- Incorrectly taken kick - scrum.

But it doesn't say who gets the put in, and it's not covered in the list of scrum infringements?
I am guessing the none offending team but it's not clear.

 

[Jz558]

But it doesn't say who gets the put in, and it's not covered in the list of scrum infringements?
I am guessing the none offending team but it's not clear.

I'd agree that it's not very well written but I cant imagine that that the put in would go to the side who incorrectly took the kick but stranger things have happened. The one that makes me laugh is the kick can be taken by any member of the non offending side - sanction scrum. I assume this is written to make it clear that the kit man cant run on and take it.

 

[crossref]

Interestingly 20.11 "Sanction: Scrum" is a CHANGE to the Law in 2021 - that sanction wasn't there in the 2020 Law book .


which would explain why

But it doesn't say who gets the put in, and it's not covered in the list of scrum infringements?
I am guessing the none offending team but it's not clear.

they added a new scrum sanction (it was previously take it again) but haven't added this in fully/properly

 

[Dickie E]

Interestingly 20.11 "Sanction: Scrum" is a CHANGE to the Law in 2021 - that sanction wasn't there in the 2020 Law book .

wow. That's why I asked the question. We've just been given the 2020 law book (which I was looking at) and already it's out of date. :holysheep:

I've had 2 instances already this season where ball hasn't left the player's hands and I've brought it back for a retake. The mouthy SH who said "isn't that our scrum, sir?" was right.

I wonder what else varies from 2020 to 2021.

 

[Flish]

I’ve had a few cases over the years where players have believed they should get the scrum, but I always put that down to optimism / bias, and have always restarted with “take it properly please” - whatever advantage they thought they were getting will have gone by then anyway