England v France

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Listened to 2nd half on R5L on way home from my game but had to turn it off as I couldn't stand listening to Matt Dawson. What an irritating little twat that man is. :mad:

I will form an opinion on AG's performance when I watch it on "tape".
 

The Fat


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Listened to 2nd half on R5L on way home from my game but had to turn it off as I couldn't stand listening to Matt Dawson. What an irritating little twat that man is. :mad:

I will form an opinion on AG's performance when I watch it on "tape".

Your post leads me to believe Matt Dawson was critical of AG's performance???
I tried to stay awake to watch both games but hey, I'm old.
Did manage to see the last 18 minutes of this game and it looked like a bit of stop-start stuff. Looked like AG was trying to let the ball come out of a few untidy rucks and scrums to get some footy. Would this be a fair comment?

I did think the end of the game was odd. Camera didn't stay on play after England awarded PK. Heard the final whistle and saw AG turn to walk off and THEN saw England kick the ball to touch. Very strange.
 
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winchesterref


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I thought for my first impression that he was a bit whistle happy and pedantic, but then I felt he backed out of fully managing ill disciplined players. I shall have to watch it again though.
 

Pinky


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I thought he had a fairly good game - I've not reviewed it, though. I got the impression that he was a little inconsistent, but applied this equally to both sides especially about penalising the BC for holding on when the defenders were all off their feet. Did not get all the help he should have from the ARs, though, and the TMO called in (correctly in fact) a high tackle on Jonny May, and later there was a similar HT on a Frenchman and no sanction. He seemed to have the patience of a saint with the FRs who were playing about a lot, until he finally took the hookers to task about butting heads.
 

crossref


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His most unusual decision was to penalise England for diving on a ball that had just come out of a ruck. That's a Law you don't see very often
- ball came out
- AG actually said - 'ball out'
- England player dives on it
- peep.

Some discussion followed!
It was a harsh call IMO
 

didds

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Could somebody talk me through May's YC?
And why neither HT was a YC?
Didds
 

Paule23


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Could somebody talk me through May's YC?
And why neither HT was a YC?
Didds

For May's, tackled player lifted above the horizontal, player landed on shoulder - YC.

I though this was a little harsh as the tackled player seemed to be jumping and twisting and contributed to how he fell, but May clearly lifted his leg high which tipped him over. Once you blow for a penalty as he impacted with upper body/shoulder you are looking at YC. I thought it should have been red once a penalty was given as IMO the tackled player landed head first

The HT were both considered accidental, tackles riding up,and in my view this was the correct decision.

Overall I though the referee had a good game, he clearly wanted to penalise both sides, and attack and defence, preventing a fair contest for the ball. I agree the ball out of the ruck penalty was harsh, but it's an interesting debate as to what you consider is a ball emerging from the ruck. In this case the ball was clearly out (and stationary) was touched by an England player prior to Wood being penalised for diving on the ball emerging from the ruck. I thought it was already out from the ruck, so no penalty.
 

Taff


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I thought he had a fairly good game.
Same here. Came across as very confident.

His most unusual decision was to penalise England for diving on a ball that had just come out of a ruck. That's a Law you don't see very often. ... It was a harsh call IMO
At 33 mins 40 secs I think. I know there's been chat about this before, but I still reckon penalising that was wrong.

16.4 Other ruck offences
(e) A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Is a ball that has clearly left a ruck (and called out IIRC) the same as a ball "coming out" of a ruck? I would say no, but I know others disagree.
 

didds

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the whole thing would be easier to understand if it EVER got called normally.

didds
 

Camquin

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Why is it not normally called?
Is it because it rarely happens, or because referees fail to penalize it to keep the game flowing, or some other reason?

In general the player on their feet has the rights, so going off you feet to prevent a player on their feet playing the ball is dubious.
In open play you can do it, provided you play the ball immediately.
 

ACUSmember

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Comments below come with the usual caveat that I am not a ref, rather just someone who appreciates that the analysis of decisions I didn't understand here is several magnitudes better than on television.

Re: May's yellow card. My reaction in real time was that Fickou had fallen awkwardly in trying to spin out of May's tackle, but that it wasn't a penalty on May's part. On seeing the slow motion, I can understand how you can tick off all the requisite requirements for a penalty - May is clearly holding onto a leg which comes past the horizontal, and there is arguably some lifting motion to get it there - and once you're satisfied on that part, a card clearly follows (indeed, since Fickou seemed to land part-shoulder / a lot of face, then it could easily have been a lot worse).

My issue in some ways is that to me it doesn't feel like the sort of incident that was intended to be caught by the dangerous tackle laws / directives etc, which I always thought was aimed at preventing something like the (in)famous Warburton-on-Clerc tackle.

Had AG ruled that the primary cause of Fickou's leg going above the horizontal and his landing awkwardly was his attempt to spin out of the tackle, and that any lifting action by May was incidental and not a cause of this, would the wise sages on here be satisfied, or are you all happy penalty and YC were the correct result?

16.4 Other ruck offences
(e) A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick


*Adds to an embarrassingly long list of laws he had no idea existed despite playing rugby for a decade whilst at school.*

I genuinely can't recall having ever seen this one pinged before.
 

OB..


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16.4 (e) was introduced in 1998 (different numbering then, of course, but same wording.)

I don't know when it became acceptable for scrumhalves to pick the ball out of the ruck, but I suspect it post-dates 1998. I have clear memories of the attacking scrum half having to wait for a player to heel the ball out before he could play it, and the defending scrumhalf waiting to pounce on it. I think that was why the law was introduced - in which case it is no longer needed.

May simply needs to learn "do not lift". His legs are very quick, but I am not so sure about his wits.
 

crossref


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May's YC... I don't think it's possible to *lift* someone by one leg.
For me there was no lift, more of a topple. So it was a harsh YC
 

Paule23


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May's YC... I don't think it's possible to *lift* someone by one leg.
For me there was no lift, more of a topple. So it was a harsh YC
its very possible to lift someone by one leg. I agree there were elements of topple here, but i am comfortable with the ref penalising this. As noted by ACUS and in my earlier posting, May actually got off lightly as once you decide to penalise and got down the route of a dangerous tackle, the player landing on his head leads to RC not YC.
 

Gracie


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A day on, it's interesting to see the various views - my observation was that he never looked confident or in control, not helped by some modest swearing. He talked far too much to the teams and was inconsistent throughout; in a poor game, he simply made things worse. The outcome of his approach was that the players did not seem to know what he was looking for; see the front rows confused expressions and the pen call against England, when he clearly said the ball was out.
 

Ian_Cook


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His most unusual decision was to penalise England for diving on a ball that had just come out of a ruck. That's a Law you don't see very often
- ball came out
- AG actually said - 'ball out'
- England player dives on it
- peep.

Some discussion followed!
It was a harsh call IMO

Harsh? I thought it was exactly right and i.a.w. Law

[LAWS]16.4 (e) A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.[/LAWS]

I'd like to see it penalised every time. If the ball is out, and you are not in an offside position, don't fall on it, pick the bloody thing up!!!
 

crossref


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Harsh? I thought it was exactly right and i.a.w. Law

[LAWS]16.4 (e) A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.[/LAWS]

I'd like to see it penalised every time. If the ball is out, and you are not in an offside position, don't fall on it, pick the bloody thing up!!!

Was it 'coming out of a ruck' or was it, actually, out?
AG actually called 'ball out'. So it presumably it was out
 

Gracie


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AG called it out so it was out
 

didds

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May's YC... I don't think it's possible to *lift* someone by one leg.
For me there was no lift, more of a topple. So it was a harsh YC

I appreciate I have white tinted glasses, but I must say I agree with CR. It was more of a twist on the tackle than a lift, the player was almost horizontal to start with and I thought it harsh let alone stupid. Hey ho. I'm not an international ref.

didds
 
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