Equity

[Dickie E]

Just picking up on one point that has been raised here.
If a team say to me one of our front rows has a sore neck and can no longer continue contested. I would not allow that player to continue playing in any position no matter what the competition regulations say, man off or not.
That player is leaving the field permanently.

Would you require a #10 to leave the field if he had a sore neck?

 

[Decorily]

Would you require a #10 to leave the field if he had a sore neck?

What's the definition of 'Equity' again?

 

[ianh5979]

I would have the #10 leave, he still has to tackle during the game risking damage to an unstable neck area

 

[Dickie E]

Just picking up on one point that has been raised here.
If a team say to me one of our front rows has a sore neck and can no longer continue contested. I would not allow that player to continue playing in any position no matter what the competition regulations say, man off or not.
That player is leaving the field permanently.

what if he had a sore shoulder that prevented him from scrummaging without pain. Offski? How about an ankle injury?

 

[didds]

what if he had a sore shoulder that prevented him from scrummaging without pain. Offski? How about an ankle injury?

can he tackle safely with a sore shoulder?

 

[tim White]

Law 3.21.c The referee decides (with or without medical advice) that it would be inadvisable for the player to continue. The referee orders that player to leave the playing area.

Sometimes you have to stand up and make that decision on the player's behalf -knowing it may not be popular. 'Twas always thus.

 

[crossref]

if captain tells you they consider it's not safe to contest then ... whatever you think about it, they aren't going to contest, are they?

it's either uncontested or end of the game.

I'd just make a note of the time, and go uncontested.

if they all want to continue to play, I'm not going to abandon the game and walk off

 

[Dickie E]

Law 3.21.c The referee decides (with or without medical advice) that it would be inadvisable for the player to continue. The referee orders that player to leave the playing area.

Sometimes you have to stand up and make that decision on the player's behalf -knowing it may not be popular. 'Twas always thus.

In any given game there will be a number of players carrying injuries of some sort. The difference is that an injured front rower in a contested scrum is life threatening, elsewhere probably not.
For me, if the hooker with a sore shoulder wants to have a run in the backs, knock yourself out (so to speak)

 

[didds]

what if the injured shoulder is actually indicative of a neck injury? necks in tackles? Hmmm.

 

[Dickie E]

what if the injured shoulder is actually indicative of a neck injury? necks in tackles? Hmmm.

So the way to go would be:
1. Sub your hooker off for someone not STE
2. Go uncontested
3. Sub your hooker back on

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So the way to go would be:
1. Sub your hooker off for someone not STE
2. Go uncontested
3. Sub your hooker back on

If a player goes off due to injury he is "replaced" not "substituted"! such a play cannot return to the filed Law 3.21

Permanent replacement

• A player may be replaced if injured. An injured player may not return once replaced.

My bold for emphasis.

 

[Dickie E]

If a player goes off due to injury he is "replaced" not "substituted"! such a play cannot return to the filed Law 3.21

Permanent replacement

• A player may be replaced if injured. An injured player may not return once replaced.

My bold for emphasis.

"hey, skip, my shoulder's sore. I don't think I can scrummage anymore"
"FFS, keep your voice down, or the ref might here you. Hey ref, we're going to sub our hooker. Unfortunately the new player isn't STE, so I guess its uncontested scrums. Yeah, bummer."

 

[didds]

So if team A tactically substitute player X for player Y, ten minutes later they can tactically sub Y for X ? Ive somehow missed that memo! (mea culpa!)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So if team A tactically substitute player X for player Y, ten minutes later they can tactically sub Y for X ? Ive somehow missed that memo! (mea culpa!)

No he can't. unless Rolling subs, A subbed player can also return to cover an injured FR player to maintain contested scrums See law 3 in particular 28, 33 and 34.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

"hey, skip, my shoulder's sore. I don't think I can scrummage anymore"
"FFS, keep your voice down, or the ref might here you. Hey ref, we're going to sub our hooker. Unfortunately the new player isn't STE, so I guess its uncontested scrums. Yeah, bummer."

Law 3.13. Scrums will become uncontested if either team cannot field a suitably trained front row or if the referee so orders.

The team is able to field a FR. In your scenario because you are saying the player is not injured. So why is he not continuing?

I would as a minimum be reporting that you subbed a player to go uncontested and it was not due to injury We have to report (in league and cup games the reason for U/C scrums I'd let the union deal ith it.

If teams want to rish a players health without me knowing that is on their heads. My conscience will be clear.

Man off rules, where they apply, would be a disincentive to such actions.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Interesting one in a friendly recently. A good scrum battle (Welsh league 4 side Vs Welsh league 5 side). League 5 side bring on new THP the existing guy goes to flanker. Next two scrums I ping the new THP. I speak to the skipper to say I have some concerns and am "watching him carefully". At the next scrum The new guy says: "I can't cope can we go U/C?" I reply that we can and I announce to both side that we are doing so. The original THP says thay that aint happening, in very colourful language, and shuts the new boy off to the flank and takes over in the FR. It being a friendly I'd have had no issue with U/C especially since (scorewise) the game was over.

 

[jdeagro]

what if the injured shoulder is actually indicative of a neck injury? necks in tackles? Hmmm.

...Necks in rucks, mauls, most other parts of the game that aren't open play essentially.

 

[didds]

No he can't. unless Rolling subs, A subbed player can also return to cover an injured FR player to maintain contested scrums See law 3 in particular 28, 33 and 34.

thansk for confirming marc, it is as I recalled.

so Dickie's https://forum.rugbyrefs.com/index.php?threads/equity.22963/post-392465 couldnt happen (unless rolling subs granted)

 

[didds]

Interesting one in a friendly recently. A good scrum battle (Welsh league 4 side Vs Welsh league 5 side). League 5 side bring on new THP the existing guy goes to flanker. Next two scrums I ping the new THP. I speak to the skipper to say I have some concerns and am "watching him carefully". At the next scrum The new guy says: "I can't cope can we go U/C?" I reply that we can and I announce to both side that we are doing so. The original THP says thay that aint happening, in very colourful language, and shuts the new boy off to the flank and takes over in the FR. It being a friendly I'd have had no issue with U/C especially since (scorewise) the game was over.

well that raises another point I guess... where in cases like these why shouldn't their be an expectation that the original THP returns from flanking duties? Otherwise any side cold force UC just by moving a prop to the wing and the wing into prop.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

well that raises another point I guess... where in cases like these why shouldn't their be an expectation that the original THP returns from flanking duties? Otherwise any side cold force UC just by moving a prop to the wing and the wing into prop.

Under 3.13 I'd say they can field an STE front row so they should, therefore he should come back. As per my experience above. However, in a friendly where sides are more about giving guys a bit of game time I'd work with them.