Forward pass law

crossref


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#1
Red 10 receives a hospital pass and is immediately caught in a choke tackle
Stationary he sees the Red 15 approaching fast, and, just as Red 15 goes past he manages to hand the ball to him

At the moment of the transfer, hand to hand, Red 15, receiving the ball, is fully in front of Red 10.

According to Law, is that a forward pass ?
 

chbg


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Definitions: Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.

Was the ball handed over forward ("towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.")? Or was hand-to-hand backwards? As it doesn't matter where the players' bodies are.
 

crossref


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Definitions: Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.

Was the ball handed over forward ("towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.")? Or was hand-to-hand backwards? As it doesn't matter where the players' bodies are.
relative to the passer - when the ball was handed it obviously wasn't moving. This will always be case when the ball is handed
relative to the ground - (if that matters, not sure it does) in this particular scenario again it's stationary
 

BikingBud


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Passer facing their own DBL and passer facing opposition DBL are the deciding pre-conditions.

Was Red 10 caught in possession and facing their own DBL? If so Red 15 retiring and looking to support takes the ball from in front of Red 10 but nearer to their own DBL, then nothing to see. I would consider this similar to a maul, in fact it might even be a maul but without fully understanding the level of detail you may wish to apply I could not say for sure.

If Red 10 is facing the oppo's DBL and retiring Red 15 takes the ball from in front of Red 10 then most likely that is "Forward"
 

crossref


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Passer facing their own DBL and passer facing opposition DBL are the deciding pre-conditions.

Was Red 10 caught in possession and facing their own DBL? If so Red 15 retiring and looking to support takes the ball from in front of Red 10 but nearer to their own DBL, then nothing to see. I would consider this similar to a maul, in fact it might even be a maul but without fully understanding the level of detail you may wish to apply I could not say for sure.

If Red 10 is facing the oppo's DBL and retiring Red 15 takes the ball from in front of Red 10 then most likely that is "Forward"
for me I tend to agree with chbg - when he says
As it doesn't matter where the players' bodies are.
 

crossref


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Passer facing their own DBL and passer facing opposition DBL are the deciding pre-conditions.

Was Red 10 caught in possession and facing their own DBL? If so Red 15 retiring and looking to support takes the ball from in front of Red 10 but nearer to their own DBL, then nothing to see. I would consider this similar to a maul, in fact it might even be a maul but without fully understanding the level of detail you may wish to apply I could not say for sure.

If Red 10 is facing the oppo's DBL and retiring Red 15 takes the ball from in front of Red 10 then most likely that is "Forward"
red 10, is holding the ball and not moving. He is facing toward the touchline (holding out the ball)

red 15, is advancing toward oppo DBL.
At the moment 15 takes the (stationary) ball, he has gone past red 10, ie 15 is closer to the oppo DBL than 10 is

While the ball is being transferred it's stationary
 
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BikingBud


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Really unsure where you are trying to go with this but that doesn't seem to work!
  1. Passing indicates the ball has moved rather than being taken by the Red 15.
  2. Use of the phrase "the ball is being transferred" supports this assessment.
  3. Therefore the ball has been propelled and travelled.
  4. A ball can travel, have velocity, in 3 distinct planes; vertically, laterally and longitudinally.
  5. Velocity is a vector quantity.
  6. Vectors have direction and magnitude.
  7. Actual travel will be likely a combination of travel, vectors, in all 3 planes.
  8. Magnitude can be positive, negative or zero for each of the planes eg; up/down, left/right, forwards/backwards.
  9. A stationary ball, held by a stationary player, has no velocity.
  10. A ball passed to a team mate that has overrun cannot be stationary, it would fall behind the runner.
  11. To be passed to that runner it must have a longitudinal component in its velocity ie towards the oppo's DB, ie forward.
Just in case it makes any difference as you seem to be introducing more and more minutiae, what colour scrum cap was being worn by the opposing no4 and did the outside centre have a more dominant left or right foot?

Also if it helps to be clear and assist the level of analysis, was the attack being defended by the outside centre of the green team that were playing on the same pitch in a game earlier in the day but decided to kick with the wind in the first half but regretted it as the yellow 10 had a siege gun boot and kept them pegged back in their own 22 for the majority of the second half.

On the other hand as Red 10 was stationary and there was no pre-existing longitudinal motion on the ball, if it had been transferred laterally to Red 15 when he was alongside Red 10 then this would be fine.

I trust that helps.
 

crossref


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.

On the other hand as Red 10 was stationary and there was no pre-existing longitudinal motion on the ball, if it had been transferred laterally to Red 15 when he was alongside Red 10 then this would be fine.

I trust that helps.
That's the scenario in the OP
So NOT a forward pass. Got there in the end :)
 
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crossref


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So far as I can tell, then, two people offered a judgement on this scenario

Didds .. Forward Pass
Biking Bud .. not a forward pass*

I had hoped for more votes, but happy that the two I got support my point !

Any more for any more ?

(*do correct me if I misunderstood)
 

crossref


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Transferred laterally is not forward = play on.
When the person handing over the ball is stationary, so the ball is also stationary, how do you define "laterally"? By the relative position of the giver and the recipient?

In the OP scenario, at the moment of transfer the recipient is in front of the stationary giver
 

BikingBud


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That's the scenario in the OP
So NOT a forward pass. Got there in the end :)
#1
Red 10 receives a hospital pass and is immediately caught in a choke tackle
Stationary he sees the Red 15 approaching fast, and, just as Red 15 goes past he manages to hand the ball to him

At the moment of the transfer, hand to hand, Red 15, receiving the ball, is fully in front of Red 10.

According to Law, is that a forward pass ?

Nope you mention in post 7 that Red 15 has gone beyond Red 10 so it had longitudinal velocity and is therefore forward.

red 10, is holding the ball and not moving. He is facing toward the touchline (holding out the ball)

red 15, is advancing toward oppo DBL.
At the moment 15 takes the (stationary) ball, he has gone past red 10, ie 15 is closer to the oppo DBL than 10 is

While the ball is being transferred it's stationary

You are changing the scenarios, please stay with one.
 

Rich_NL

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Nope you mention in post 7 that Red 15 has gone beyond Red 10 so it had longitudinal velocity and is therefore forward.
I think you're confusing velocity and position. In a stationary transfer, v=0, regardless of whether R15 is in front or behind R10. It then acquires R15's velocity.

According to the definition, the ball's velocity towards red's DBL should be equal to or greater than R10's at the point of passing.

However, in CR's case most people would blow for a forward pass, and not offside (which law is based on position of R15 relative to R10). Considering there's usually an overlap in these laws and we favour forward pass where we can, it's not that strange an anomaly.
 

crossref


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Nope you mention in post 7 that Red 15 has gone beyond Red 10 so it had longitudinal velocity and is therefore forward.



You are changing the scenarios, please stay with one.
I am really not ! Read it again

10 is stationary
15 is moving
10 hands the ball to 15

At the moment of transfer
.. 10 is stationary
.. the ball is stationary
.. 15 is in front of 10

Rich NL explains it beautifully in the post above
 

crossref


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so let's wrap this up a bit

My purpose : I was trying to demonstrate a scenario where the Law isn't clear.

I only got two clear votes (I think) :-( but one saying forward pass, the other saying NOT a forward pass. So that was nice. :)
Some people contributed to thread, but without offering a conclusion

But perhaps more interesting

Some discussion about the forward component of the velocity of the ball, and whether it increases.
but if the definition of a forward pass is that is increases forward velocity, then transferring the ball is NEVER a forward pass : at the moment of transfer the velocity of the ball is always the same as the player offering it​
And anyway - that ISN'T the definition of a forward pass - - the Laws don't even mention velocity :
should the Law mention velocity ???​
If that's the go-to concept we use, should that be in the Law? would that make the Law clearer?​

What does the Law actually say?

Throw forward
  1. A throw forward may occur anywhere in the playing area. Sanction: Scrum.
Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward

Although it was a Law question no one referred to those Laws - I assume because the Laws provide no help with this scenario,
Which is (of course) why I chose the scenario

Transferring the ball isn't a throw anyway.
and (as in this case - the arms may not be moving)
Perhaps transferring the ball really can't be a forward pass

My view
- on field I would blow for a forward pass
- as to what the Law says - I am not sure, it's not clear.
I like Rich NL's point that - really - it's offside.
could we call it 'accidental offside, scrum' ?
 
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BikingBud


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so let's wrap this up a bit

My purpose : I was trying to demonstrate a scenario where the Law isn't clear.

I only got two clear votes (I think) :-( but one saying forward pass, the other saying NOT a forward pass. So that was nice. :)
Some people contributed to thread, but without offering a conclusion

But perhaps more interesting

Some discussion about the forward component of the velocity of the ball, and whether it increases.
but if the definition of a forward pass is that is increases forward velocity, then transferring the ball is NEVER a forward pass : at the moment of transfer the velocity of the ball is always the same as the player offering it​
And anyway - that ISN'T the definition of a forward pass - - the Laws don't even mention velocity :
should the Law mention velocity ???​
If that's the go-to concept we use, should that be in the Law? would that make the Law clearer?​

What does the Law actually say?




Although it was a Law question no one referred to those Laws - I assume because the Laws provide no help with this scenario,
Which is (of course) why I chose the scenario

Transferring the ball isn't a throw anyway.
and (as in this case - the arms may not be moving)
Perhaps transferring the ball really can't be a forward pass

My view
- on field I would blow for a forward pass
- as to what the Law says - I am not sure, it's not clear.
I like Rich NL's point that - really - it's offside.
could we call it 'accidental offside, scrum' ?

Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.

Red 10 has no velocity.

Apparently Red 15 has no velocity but is in front of Red 10.

If the receiver is closer to the oppo's DBL than the passer then it has moved forward away from Red's DBL

As Red 10 was stationary and the ball was passed to Red 15 who was in front then it is forward.

Still don't get what is confusing other than the attempts to over think it.

Interesting thought about offside:

Offside and onside in open play
10.1 A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes:​
a. Playing the ball.​
b. Tackling the ball-carrier.​
c. Preventing the opposition from playing as they wish.​
10.2 A player can be offside anywhere in the playing area.​
10.3 A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.​

I would offer that most would consider a minor forward pass an "unintentional throw forward", 10.3, and call for the scrum as the other option appears to be:

10.5 A player is accidentally offside if the player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate who is carrying the ball. Only if the offending team gains an advantage should play stop. Sanction: Scrum.​

So no difference to the sanction anyway.
 
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