foward pass / TMO

crossref


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this was the biggie from that game

I can't find a clip that has the whole conversation with the TMO, unfortunately - the TMO was clearly advising Tempest that the pass was forward, but Tempo wasn't having it.

Looks forward to me
- passer has no momentum, but ball still goes forward
- to me hands move forward

(but disclosure, I do support Quins)

There were two things to discuss on this
1 - did they get to the right result (IMO No)
2 - was the conversation a good one? This one was more interesting. The ref does have the final call over the TMO, but I felt IT went quite quickly and didn't listen well to the TMO

If you have access to BT sport, you can find it in the full match replay with 81 mins on the game clock :rolleyes:
 
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Stu10

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I think the pass was forward. They are level with each other when Hogg passes out of the tackle, but then the catcher has to move up field to catch it... Check relative to white lines. Hogg is stationary due to the tackle, so no forward momentum transferred to the ball... Clear forward pass. See photos below.

I felt IT rushed the analysis... there was no mention from him of forward momentum or player positions relative to the pitch markings, and I felt he did not consider comments from the TMO. I can't say whether he folded under the pressure of chalking off a match winning try to the home side in overtime 🤷‍♂️

The clip that has the whole conversation with the TMO is here:
1664215436265.png
1664215471848.png
 

Dickie E


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here is a clip that may be be better for those not geoblocked by ITV. Full conversation can be heard.


Forward pass for me.

Mathieu Raynal, here is your homework. Write out 100 times "this is how you manage a pre-conversion TMO event"
 

Phil E


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Not CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY forward for me, very marginal.
As the onfield decision was a try, then there was no compelling evidence to overturn that IMO.
 

Stu10

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This type of situation will always be contentious because the current approach is subjective... the TMO said it was clearly forward, but IT thought otherwise; in this forum some of us think it was clearly forward while others think otherwise.

Someone on Twitter suggested rugby should adopt more advanced technology such as that used by VAR in football, ie use a computer to draw lines across the pitch, and thus try to remove subjectivity... thoughts? Arguably the biggest issue was that IT wanted a camera angle that was perpendicular to the touch line (which I felt was asking too much... IMO, the angle he had was pretty good and very typical of what is available, so the slight angle should not have defeated his ability to judge the forward pass).
 

crossref


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This type of situation will always be contentious because the current approach is subjective... the TMO said it was clearly forward, but IT thought otherwise; in this forum some of us think it was clearly forward while others think otherwise.

Someone on Twitter suggested rugby should adopt more advanced technology such as that used by VAR in football, ie use a computer to draw lines across the pitch, and thus try to remove subjectivity... thoughts? Arguably the biggest issue was that IT wanted a camera angle that was perpendicular to the touch line (which I felt was asking too much... IMO, the angle he had was pretty good and very typical of what is available, so the slight angle should not have defeated his ability to judge the forward pass).
I think technical challenge is very high, as it's not a question of tracking the ball's movement over the ground (solved in other sports and straightforward) but measuring the change in the forward component of the balls velocity before and after the pass (new use case for rugby and trickier)
 

Dickie E


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I think technical challenge is very high, as it's not a question of tracking the ball's movement over the ground (solved in other sports and straightforward) but measuring the change in the forward component of the balls velocity before and after the pass (new use case for rugby and trickier)
 

crossref


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BikingBud


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This type of situation will always be contentious because the current approach is subjective... the TMO said it was clearly forward, but IT thought otherwise; in this forum some of us think it was clearly forward while others think otherwise.

Someone on Twitter suggested rugby should adopt more advanced technology such as that used by VAR in football, ie use a computer to draw lines across the pitch, and thus try to remove subjectivity... thoughts? Arguably the biggest issue was that IT wanted a camera angle that was perpendicular to the touch line (which I felt was asking too much... IMO, the angle he had was pretty good and very typical of what is available, so the slight angle should not have defeated his ability to judge the forward pass).
I do not follow soccer but given the time and space that is consumed by arguing about VAR I would not hold it as a shining example of how to use technology.

Personally, as an impartial, it was a forward pass, Hogg is static and the receiver has to adjust and still catches it in front of the passer. Typical failure to hold depth in an attack.
 

Marc Wakeham


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The passer is static due to the tackle but the previous momentum is still acting on the ball. I wonder if things would be so C&O IF there had not been a tackle?
 

crossref


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The passer is static due to the tackle but the previous momentum is still acting on the ball. I wonder if things would be so C&O IF there had not been a tackle?
This was an offload. if the tackled player was static, so was the ball he was holding
 

Stu10

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The passer is static due to the tackle but the previous momentum is still acting on the ball. I wonder if things would be so C&O IF there had not been a tackle?

If there had not been a tackle the passer may have continued up the pitch, which would have made it easier to assess impact of momentum (e.g. the Quins try earlier in the game).
 

BikingBud


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If there had not been a tackle the passer may have continued up the pitch, which would have made it easier to assess impact of momentum (e.g. the Quins try earlier in the game).
If there had not been a tackler perhaps Hogg would have scored, or perhaps the supporting player would not have overrun, or perhaps Hogg may have dropped the ball, or perhaps they fail to beat the last defender as they butcher a basic 2 on 1 that we expect competent school kids to score.

He'd tried to smash Smith a few minutes earlier and for a "class" full back to run straight at a defender like that again is neither effective nor intelligent play but they got away with it so outcome bias comes in to play when assessing the move.
 

SimonSmith


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Not CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY forward for me, very marginal.
As the onfield decision was a try, then there was no compelling evidence to overturn that IMO.
I have some sympathy with PhilE on this one.
My gut watching it "live" was "oooh, that's a close one"

Tempest was close to in line, and had sent it upstairs as a try. Clear and obvious mistake? Not for my money. The nature of his questions suggested to me that had a conclusive angle been available, he'd have taken it. He'd seen both angles and wasn't satisfied there was enough there to over turn his decision.
 

OB..


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When a player is passing to his right, it is the left hand (usually) that provides the force. I stopped the video just after the ball was released and the left hand was clearly ahead of the ball. Unless the right hand happened to brush the ball forward, it was not a forward pass. (I think ...)
 

Rich_NL

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Given the ref's ruling on the earlier questionable forward pass for Quins' try it shows consistency and giving the benefit of the doubt on borderline calls to the attacking team. I agree that it's right on the edge of not c&o.
 

Marc Wakeham


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If there had not been a tackle the passer may have continued up the pitch, which would have made it easier to assess impact of momentum (e.g. the Quins try earlier in the game).
If there had not been a tackler perhaps Hogg would have scored, or perhaps the supporting player would not have overrun, or perhaps Hogg may have dropped the ball, or perhaps they fail to beat the last defender as they butcher a basic 2 on 1 that we expect competent school kids to score.

He'd tried to smash Smith a few minutes earlier and for a "class" full back to run straight at a defender like that again is neither effective nor intelligent play but they got away with it so outcome bias comes in to play when assessing the move.
All imaterial to the point raised. The player offloads out of the tackle which can change perception.
 

number11


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Thanks Stu10 for the images. I've aproximated a line across the pitch. Looks forward to me.

hogg-1.pnghogg-2.png
 
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