foward pass / TMO

[Dickie E]

Thanks Stu10 for the images. I've aproximated a line across the pitch. Looks forward to me.

Don't forget though:

 

[Stu10]

When a player is passing to his right, it is the left hand (usually) that provides the force. I stopped the video just after the ball was released and the left hand was clearly ahead of the ball. Unless the right hand happened to brush the ball forward, it was not a forward pass. (I think ...)

Coming at this as a fly half, passing to my right, my left hand would start forward and would come over the ball and back towards my body/chest if I was passing backwards... if I was passing forwards then both hands would remain in front of me, with the left being further forward... for me, if his left hand was ahead of the ball, then definitely a forward pass.

 

[Stu10]

Given the ref's ruling on the earlier questionable forward pass for Quins' try it shows consistency and giving the benefit of the doubt on borderline calls to the attacking team. I agree that it's right on the edge of not c&o.

I think the earlier Quins try was an easier call... the passer continued to advance up the pitch and was ahead of the receiver when he caught the ball, which indicates forward momentum transferred to the ball, IMHO.

 

[Stu10]

Don't forget though:

That video talks about relative velocity of the player in relation to the ball travelling forward up the pitch despite the passing action being backwards, however, Hogg was tackled and lost most of his velocity before making the pass, therefore there was very little relative velocity transferred to the ball. If Hogg had made the pass before the tackle then I might be otherwise swayed.

 

[number11]

Don't forget though:

Thanks for this! 30 years of rugby and I'd never come across this.

It's a shame that the laws don't reflect what's stated in the video.

 

[OB..]

Coming at this as a fly half, passing to my right, my left hand would start forward and would come over the ball and back towards my body/chest if I was passing backwards... if I was passing forwards then both hands would remain in front of me, with the left being further forward... for me, if his left hand was ahead of the ball, then definitely a forward pass.

?? The pass was made with his left hand. His left hand was ahead of the ball just after releasing it. How can that be a forward pass?

 

[BikingBud]

Thanks for this! 30 years of rugby and I'd never come across this.

It's a shame that the laws don't reflect what's stated in the video.

I understand entirely the forward motion part but I plead guilty to calling it a forward pass whereas the laws define:

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

So the passage of the ball over the ground is not always the indicator of "Thrown Forward" perhaps we should all ensure we use the correct phrase.

Notwithstanding the above, as the ball was caught in front and the passer was stationary it was thrown forward

 

[crossref]

Thanks for this! 30 years of rugby and I'd never come across this.

It's a shame that the laws don't reflect what's stated in the video.

they do though --

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.


ie it's forward relative to the player that matters, not to the ground

 

[didds]

but as we know forward of a line does not make it a forward pass.
its the angle out of the hands that denotes whether its forward or not.

 

[Harry]

As a fan in the stands, at as it happens, the wrong end for most of the tries. I'd Iike to say it was a marvellous game to watch. I'd like to thank the officials who had a lot of tricky decisions to make. The players who may not have liked those decisions but respected the officials and got on with the game. I'd also thank the travelling fans good natured banter was exchanged but the smiles never faltered. They also accepted decisions that went against them. Yes there's a lot to discuss, but bear in mind it was Rugby as good as it gets.

 

[SimonSmith]

So: we can't all agree, and we have multiple video replays.

Conclusion: Not C&O enough to overturn on field decision.

 

[Stu10]

So: we can't all agree, and we have multiple video replays.

Conclusion: Not C&O enough to overturn on field decision.

That's a fair comment. However, the general opinion is seems to be forward, or not C&O forward... on the flip side, has anyone said it is C&O flat or backwards? Ignoring the referee decision and how the question was asked, was the pass more likely forward or flat/backwards? Could IT have asked a different question so there wasn't a bias towards giving the try, and would a different question have been more appropriate?

 

[crossref]

So: we can't all agree, and we have multiple video replays.

Conclusion: Not C&O enough to overturn on field decision.

yes, but has the confusion and disagreement has been created by the increasing bonkers interpretations / guidelines / TMO dialogues employed?

as a sport we seem to have totally tied ourselves in knots about what exactly is a forward pass -- ironic as this is the most basic law in rugby.

(although, to be fair football has had some similar problems defining a handball - the most basic law in football!)

 

[didds]

as a sport we seem to have totally tied ourselves in knots about what exactly is a forward pass -- ironic as this is the most basic law in rugby.

Id have to respectfully disagree. it must be over twenty years since I heard the "backwards out of the hands" concept, and suggested myself the
"run forwards at 10mph, pass back over the head at 5mph, gonna call that ball traveling forwards at 5mph a forward pass?" query

I don't see anything has changed for a very long time."

 

[crossref]

Id have to respectfully disagree. it must be over twenty years since I heard the "backwards out of the hands" concept, and suggested myself the
"run forwards at 10mph, pass back over the head at 5mph, gonna call that ball traveling forwards at 5mph a forward pass?" query

I don't see anything has changed for a very long time."

it's not as simple as though is it? whether a pass is forward or not also depends upon how you ask the question..

n the flip side, has anyone said it is C&O flat or backwards? Ignoring the referee decision and how the question was asked, was the pass more likely forward or flat/backwards? Could IT have asked a different question so there wasn't a bias towards giving the try, and would a different question have been more appropriate?

and just last weekend we also have the problem of a forward pass inside a maul .. was that forward?

AND in the other thread we can't define a deliberate knock forward either

 

[Rich_NL]

That's a fair comment. However, the general opinion is seems to be forward, or not C&O forward... on the flip side, has anyone said it is C&O flat or backwards? Ignoring the referee decision and how the question was asked, was the pass more likely forward or flat/backwards? Could IT have asked a different question so there wasn't a bias towards giving the try, and would a different question have been more appropriate?

This is turning C&O completely backwards. The point is that any offence has to be C&O, not that it has to have C&O *not* happened.

I'm sure he could have phrased the question to actively favour disallowing an onfield try decision, but why should he, when that goes against all common practice?

 

[OB..]

How about: "When the ball is being carried, it has the same forward speed as the carrier. If a passing action by the carrier increases the forward speed of the ball, it constitutes a forward pass."?

 

[didds]

How about "the ball must leave the hands backwards" ?

 

[OB..]

How about: "When the ball is being carried, it has the same forward speed as the carrier. If a passing action by the carrier increases the forward speed of the ball, it constitutes a forward pass."?

That raises the old problem of whether the ball actually has to move backwards relative to the ground. I think we agree that it doesn't, but that is not forced by the wording you propose.

 

[crossref]

How about: "When the ball is being carried, it has the same forward speed as the carrier. If a passing action by the carrier increases the forward speed of the ball, it constitutes a forward pass."?

It's nice but still have the problem of what's clear and obvious, and the outcome potentially being different depending on the question asked