Fumbled and touch

[crossref]

Blue kicks high for touch

Red player positions himself to catch the ball, with one foot in touch ,one foot in the field of play... And..

1. fumbles the catch knocking it forward, ball lands on field of play

2. Fumbles the catch and ball goes backward landing in touch

What's the decision

(both these actually happened in Leicester v Quins this evening)

 

[Pinky]

1 depends if the ball had crossed the plane of touch. If so, line out as if kicked straight out. If not, the scrum to kicking team 5m in from catcher/fumbler.

 

[Pinky]

2Touch as if kicked out on the full. The catcher/fumbler is in touch.

 

[ddjamo]

neither are a catch and you didn't address the plane...so....

1. KO - scrum kicking side.
2. touch - line to kicking side.

 

[crossref]

This is real life, and you are the ref, in field not on the touchline, so you can't tell if the ball crossed the plane of touch or not. (it's very very marginal, the would be catcher is straddling the touchline, catching the ball)

What do you give

 

[ddjamo]

same...

 

[chbg]

Don't reward the fumbler

 

[Accylad]

This is real life, and you are the ref, in field not on the touchline, so you can't tell if the ball crossed the plane of touch or not. (it's very very marginal, the would be catcher is straddling the touchline, catching the ball)

What do you give

"Knock on. Want something different? - catch it"

 

[The Fat]

Blue kicks high for touch

Red player positions himself to catch the ball, with one foot in touch ,one foot in the field of play... And..

1. fumbles the catch knocking it forward, ball lands on field of play

2. Fumbles the catch and ball goes backward landing in touch

What's the decision

(both these actually happened in Leicester v Quins this evening)

Assuming ball had not crossed the plane of touch;
No.1 is straight forward. Knock-on by red fumbler so scrum on 5m line in line with where contact was made
No.2 is less clear in law but I agree with ddjamo, lineout to blue where red fumbled and ball crossed the touch line

 

[ChrisR]

Ball strikes object/player in touch. Therefor ball out on the full. Fumbler rewarded with LO unless kick from PK, LO from place of kick if in front of kickers 22. Fumble not material. Plane of touch not material.

 

[The Fat]

Ball strikes object/player in touch. Therefor ball out on the full. Fumbler rewarded with LO unless kick from PK, LO from place of kick if in front of kickers 22. Fumble not material.

Using your rationale, how do you rule on the last paragraph in Definitions for Law 19?

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

 

[ChrisR]

You have a point but I'd still go with my post. Curious to hear the call, though.

 

[Pegleg]

This is real life, and you are the ref, in field not on the touchline, so you can't tell if the ball crossed the plane of touch or not. (it's very very marginal, the would be catcher is straddling the touchline, catching the ball)

What do you give

It would depend on whether I thought it had crossed the plane of touch or not. SO it depends on what I would have seen in the scenario. So sorry the answer has to be "if". Nothong t odo with rewarding either player. It depends on what I perceived to happen.

 

[crossref]

This is real life, and you are the ref, in field not on the touchline, so you can't tell if the ball crossed the plane of touch or not. (it's very very marginal, the would be catcher is straddling the touchline, catching the ball)

What do you give

It would depend on whether I thought it had crossed the plane of touch or not. SO it depends on what I would have seen in the scenario. So sorry the answer has to be "if". Nothong t odo with rewarding either player. It depends on what I perceived to happen.

I'm real life you can't tell whether it crossed the plane. But go on, spell out the answer to what becomes four scenarios . You can also address the ball that straddles the plane of touch if you like

 

[Rushforth]

I'm real life you can't tell whether it crossed the plane. But go on, spell out the answer to what becomes four scenarios . You can also address the ball that straddles the plane of touch if you like

6.A.4.(a) and since ARs are available 6.A.7.(a) too.

Also, how did you manage to type "I'm"?

 

[OB..]

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

Precisely.

If the ball has not broken the plance of touch, treat it as if the player was entirely in the field of play.
If it has broken the plane of touch, treat the player as if he were stading wholly in touch.

Yes, it will sometimes be hard to judge, so just do your best. Do not fudge the clear occasions just because of the difficult ones.

 

[ChrisR]

Any video of the two events?

Can't imagine a scenario where the receiving player straddles touch and there is no doubt that the ball has not touched the plane. Therefore I'll stick to my first assessment for both: "Ball in touch direct from the kick".

If video clearly shows otherwise then I'll go with the knock-on.

 

[Blackberry]

Hang on, if the ball makes contact with something in touch.... the ball is then in touch. End of chat. Is that right?

 

[The umpire]

Hang on, if the ball makes contact with something in touch.... the ball is then in touch. End of chat. Is that right?

Not if the ball hasn't crossed the plane of touch and the 'something' is a player who doesn't catch the ball.
Sounds odd, I know, but there it is.

 

[The Fat]

Hang on, if the ball makes contact with something in touch.... the ball is then in touch. End of chat. Is that right?

Last paragraph in Definitions for Law 19
A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

AND

22.4(g)
Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.

are two examples where that is not the case.