General Kicking

the magpie


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This got brought up in another forum, but not really answered, so I thought I'd throw this out to the learned members of this forum.

Where in the LotG is it defined what a kick is?

Also, there is an old thing that referees look for, in that the drop out of the hands for a kick has to be deliberate, and have seen numerous referees award knock ons where the player has dropped the ball, but managed to kick it before it reaches the dirt. Is this correct?

Any help is appreciated.:confused:
 

Phil E


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Where in the LotG is it defined what a kick is?

In the definitions.

[LAWS]Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel,
from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible
distance out of the hand, or along the ground.[/LAWS]
 

MrQeu

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That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, so I'd say is legal because of silence procedure ("qui tacet consentire videtur").
 

Ricardowensleydale

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That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, .

Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.
 

4eyesbetter


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Ah, grasshopper; but have you lost possession, or have you voluntarily given it away?
 

Ricardowensleydale

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Ah, grasshopper; but have you lost possession, or have you voluntarily given it away?

If I have a £1 and voluntarily put it in a charity box I think we can all agree that I have lost possession of it. I can't get it back. If i did try there would be a :norc: penalty. Go straight to jail, do not pass go ,do not collect £200
 

The Fat


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Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.

The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.
 

Ricardowensleydale

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The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.

"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

So ignoring the "OR" statements it's "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it." This would include any kick from hand that touched the ground. All grubber kicks are illegal. As i said I'm not suggesting that they are or should be just that the laws should be written better.
 

the magpie


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That is the definition of a kick, but it doesn't say that a kick in general play is legal. IIRC, on the other hand, nowhere is stated that it is illegal, so I'd say is legal because of silence procedure ("qui tacet consentire videtur").

Law 7 says you're allowed to kick.
[LAWS]Any player may throw it or kick it.[/LAWS]
 

Robert Burns

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Nothing in the law says the kick has to be deliberate.

As a referee I am not looking for ways to stop the game, but to keep it going, if they release the ball (deliberately or not) and then manage to get a part of their leg to it which is permitted to be classed as a kick, play on!

Don't get all particular about being lost forward, remember clear and obvious. Not marginal and pedantic.
 

Dickie E


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Nothing in the law says the kick has to be deliberate.

As a referee I am not looking for ways to stop the game, but to keep it going, if they release the ball (deliberately or not) and then manage to get a part of their leg to it which is permitted to be classed as a kick, play on!

Don't get all particular about being lost forward, remember clear and obvious. Not marginal and pedantic.

I disagree. Again, look for intent
 

ChrisR

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Thank you, Robert Burns, for judging on fact not intent.
 

Davet

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Looking at the knock-on law "A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward," the kick from hand in open play should be illegal. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is or should be, just that the laws are poorly written.

The way the law is written is fine. You have left off the last part of the definition that states that it is a knock on if the ball touches another player or the ground before the original player can catch it again.

Remember to distinguish between a knock on and a throw forward.

You can recover a ball knocked forward, but you cannot do so with a ball thrown forward.

Consider the difference between intercepting a pass by knocking the ball forward and then catching it before it touches anyone or the floor, and throwing the ball forward over an opponents head and then catching it.
 

stuart3826


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SWEEPSTAKE How many replies can this fred reach? My punt (pun intented) would be 825:hap:
 

crossref


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SWEEPSTAKE How many replies can this fred reach? My punt (pun intented) would be 825:hap:

the discussion on whether, in the Laws, we are really allowed to kick it is rather arcane.

but the discussions about

(a) player loses the ball forward and it happens to hit his toe before it hits the ground..

(b) player loses the ball forward but before it hits the ground he cleverly manages to poke a toe at it...


Are good --

Personally I would call a knock-on for both (a) and (b).
but many here would class (b) as a kick (and indeed a clever and skilled recovery by the player). Some might even allow (a)

That's an interesting inconsistency between refs
 

Davet

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Fine, next time you see a player kick the ball from hand call a scrum.

Then never ref again.

Or you may consider that a throw forward is specifically illegal, whilst a kick forward is not - if it isn't banned it's legal.
 

Ricardowensleydale

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Fine, next time you see a player kick the ball from hand call a scrum.

Then never ref again.

Or you may consider that a throw forward is specifically illegal, whilst a kick forward is not - if it isn't banned it's legal.

No-one in their right mind thinks that you should not be able to kick the ball forward. The issue is that the laws are unclear. Just because everyone knows what the laws should be doesn't make them so. The reason the laws should accurately reflect the way the game is actually played is so that the ref has somewhere to go when he see's "sharp practice". This thread started in a conversation about heading the ball. If the laws don't clearly and accurately explain what kicking is and is not allowed how can we expect clarity on heading?
 
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