Getting more people into become referees

[Jessica Jane Cooper]

How can we get more young people to become referees?

 

[leaguerefaus]

How can we get more young people to become referees?

For all those places where they get paid nothing or very little... pay them better.

 

[Dixie]

For all those places where they get paid nothing or very little... pay them better.

Good God no! Disaster. If you pay people to referee, you introduce the idea of value for money. Does a young referee provide value for his money compared to a 10-year veteran? If not, he can be abused, complained to, moaned at and made to feel miserable. He'll then decide that the money isn't worth the hassle and disappear to a leisure pursuit that is actually enjoyable.

Jessica Jane Cooper - a warm welcome to the forums. Can you tell us why you asked the question, and provide a bit of background to your own rugby experience?

 

[andyscott]

Stop the abuse in Junior games, simple. Provide a career path that is open and transparent? (please dont say it is at the moment, it isnt).

 

[Rushforth]

Speaking from the experience of only starting to referee after retiring as a player, I think the best way to get young (16-25) people into refereeing is to start it within a club context (safety zone for many people), starting off with trainings (seniors) and moving up through the younger player ages.

At trainings, players who can't run could still "ref" certain drills, players able to run but prefering non-contact are cut out for the job.

To me, the ideal scenario for refereeing actual games for the first time is at a friendly pre-season tournament (or post-, of course). I would recommend anybody interested in giving it a go to do the IRB1 before this point, but if they are really solid on laws then safety > continuity of play / fair contest > laws explanation they should have had at very start plus training experience might be enough.

My recommendation as to how to sell this to the young players concerned is to tell them it will add to their playing ability, rather than being a replacement for it.

The first 10-20 games were hardest for me, and I'd recommend mentoring those players showing promise. Ten games over a three year period perhaps?

In clubs with proper youth sections, have the 16-year-olds start off with U13 (or younger). After a year, give them a U15 game (this age group wants to play "by the laws", so make sure they have all the irb online stuff by then). Then at 18, if they show maturity, perhaps give them a U17 friendly game.

Another important aspect is to monitor - as players - them as they grow older. Only a few will be so talented as to leave the club as professionals. However, however ambitious they are, not all will become 1st XV material as players, but that doesn't mean they can't become great referees at an early age.

 

[ChrisR]

Welcome to the site, Jessica. Your question is a very good one. I think we need to start by asking young players why they don't want to be referees. We may be surprised by their answers but I can offer a few that I'm aware of.

1. Law complexity. 'Nuff said.

2. Peer criticism. Even when there is no sideline harassment there will still be a reluctance to put themselves in a position to be criticized by their peers.

3. Lack of a pathway. In my area of the US there aren't any "community" games (unlike soccer) where a budding referee can get to ref at a true entry level. All our games are inter-club and are refereed by a certified ref or coach.

The answer lies more with the clubs than the referee societies. Here are my thoughts as a youth coach:

1. Teach the Laws of the Game as an essential part of the rugby education.
That may sound like a fundamental requirement but it's easily overlooked here as we have such a limited time to develop skill and tactical knowledge. My approach is to teach the laws in the context of the part of the game that is being practiced.

2. Have players referee the games in practice.
Much of our practices are small sided, limited rule set games. Naturally, coaches run these. Yet this is the best environment for players to step in and whistle. They get a short set of conditions to enforce and they get to rule on their peers.

3. Create a pathway.
Coaches are the best link to players but too often the coach/referee relationship is adversarial. This has to change if players are to be encouraged and recruited. One approach would be for societies or clubs to offer training in laws for the development of players and coaches. The laws tell us a. what we must not do, b. what we must do and c. what we may do. They "may" part is the hardest part as they can be explicit in law (ie. specifically stated options) or implied by omission. Not only do coaches need to know the law but they need to know how to teach it.

Just my thoughts.

 

[ChrisR]

This is spooky. Rushforth and I are of the same opinion.

 

[Browner]

How can we get more young people to become referees?

List the attractions, then list the downsides .....then compare.

Aren't the RFU currently canvassing referee opinion on payments? Feedback via London refs via monkey survey or something similar?

 

[Dickie E]

There are 2 issues: 1. getting people to become referees and 2. retaining them once they're on board

Over here we provide an incentive to the clubs to encourage their members to become officials. For junior games the team receives 1 extra competition point per game if they provide a trained AR. It is then hoped that these ARs get a taste for officiating and take up the whistle.

I think incentives to clubs (whether it be competition points, tickets to elite games, signed merchandise, etc) is a good way to go.

 

[4eyesbetter]

This can be a bloody difficult thing to get going from scratch, but it's certainly helpful if "you can go to society meetings and discuss things with other referees and get guidance and become better!" doesn't translate in the real world to "you can go to a poky little room that stinks of stale beer with twenty blokes who are all over fifty and spend their time arguing about laws they never apply properly and telling old jokes about British Leyland!"

 

[Browner]

Good God no! Disaster.

If you pay people to referee, you introduce the idea of value for money.

Does a young referee provide value for his money compared to a 10-year veteran? If not, he can be abused, complained to, moaned at and made to feel miserable. He'll then decide that the money isn't worth the hassle and disappear to a leisure pursuit that is actually enjoyable.

You can still decide its not worth it as a volunteer, more reasons to.

Pro rugby has already let the complain/moan cat out of the bag, scaled reward commensurate with operating level is the way forward.

The notion that both clubs shouldn't contribute for the services officials is outdated and proliferated by those who espouse the volunteer workforce 'great con' if grassroots players all paid £1 each ( the price of a packet of crisps in most pubs) then none of them would leave the sport citing cost.

The wealthy volunteer minded refs could donate their fee into a pot called "Ref PR dept" to be used to promote/recruit/train referees, or give it back to the clubs that respect and host them best, if they wish.

The mega millions involved in rugby require a mindset change towards grassroots officiating IMO.

 

[SimonSmith]

We - and I think most US societies - pay a fee plus mileage. If we didn't, we'd be screwed. High School basketball referees can pocket a few hundred $$ in a weekend; soccer referees get paid. In fact, most every referee in any sport over here I can think of gets paid.

 

[leaguerefaus]

We - and I think most US societies - pay a fee plus mileage. If we didn't, we'd be screwed. High School basketball referees can pocket a few hundred $$ in a weekend; soccer referees get paid. In fact, most every referee in any sport over here I can think of gets paid.

Yes I'm not sure how English rugby has gotten away with this bollocks for so long!

League refs are paid quite decently where I am, but it's one of those things - if people don't enjoy it, they don't stay around long.
The money certainly helps ensure a fair few players give it a go and see if it's their thing.

Moreover, I certainly expect to get paid, as I take time out of my day and put in a substantial amount of effort. Yes I enjoy refereeing very much, but that doesn't mean I should have to get nothing for it. This Sunday I have three games, a 13s, and two 15s. The $125 I will receive seems fair for how buggered I'm going to be when I leave the ground!

On another note, when you start refereeing here, you choose your local club and only do u6s-12s. When you're ready to move up, usually after two years, you start traveling around a bit and doing 13s and up.

 

[ddjamo]

why young?

personally, I would take a seasoned vet from a high level that has no aspirations of making any type of grade - but just wants to be a good referee and to enjoy his post playing years, stay fit and do a derby or two a year as his season highlight. say a 38 year old fly half. for those of us that are involved in the admin side, this would be one heck of a find - right? he has 20-30 years of experience, life skills, etc, etc. I would expect a guy like that to be in the real mix very quickly and be handy with most of what I could throw at him within 2 years. and if he has captain experience...we are really moving along...a 21 year old has very little of the above or the none of it.

is it our job to find young refs for our national panels to pull away? I don't think so. I think that's where we are all going wrong. a high % these kids that are hyper promoted do not make it. and where do they go once they don't become the next sir nige? they quit. the 40 year old vet ref that is fit and is confident will make it. the 40 year old experienced referee probably has friends that are fit, have a lot of experience and may even want to get involved. the 21 year old has very few friends that want to referee.

why do we take on the goals of the national office? how about take care of our backyard and if a young guy comes along - good for him?

the time I ran the line for mcmenemy I asked him about 3 young scot refs and how they were progressing. all of them had quit once their progression had stopped.

think about it...we are pushed to find young refs for the slim chance of longevity...someone prove me wrong and tell me it's working. I double dog dare you! :chin:

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Whilst not 100% comfortable with paying refs it could encourage more but where I live it hasn't helped the RL guys, they are as short as we are. I have to be honest refereeing costs me money but more importantly time. The argument " I played rugby when you married me" wears a bit thin when you worked all week and then are away all day Saturday. At least when you play you are at home alternate weeks. Real financial compensation would help. No qualified reference should have to buy there own kit

 

[menace]

I'm in agreement with most opinions here.

Especially ddjamo, we are finding that we invest a lot of time and effort in the young ones only to find that career and family calls and they leave so it seems the ROI is very low. Yet there are still many older stalwarts here that keep putting in year after year but are denied development opportunities because well, because they're 'old'. If you're new and older/mature you're considered to be just making up the numbers. I think it stinks. But it is what it is. But we need the young ones to be there, even for those that don't or won't make it to the top, we need the fillers too. However we now are dealing with gen-y, and their motives are not driven by sense of social and community morals, unlike the older baby boomers and gen-x amongst us. Gen-y are driven by what they can gain out of it, not what they will lose from it. Therefore money talks and bullsh!t walks. We may not like it, but you have to move with the times.

Therefore I agree with browner, crossref and leagie that all refs need to be 'compensated' for their time and efforts. My association is currently in a battle to have referees paid (it seems we are the last ones in Oz too!). We are battling against codes such as soccer and league that pay all their refs quite well. Our focus for payment is more to subsidise costs rather than payment for time and the debate and negotiations have now spanned 14 months. It has been a hard battle especially when dealing with very old administrators set in their ways and still dreaming of the 60/70s amateur rugby era and so we are still some way off getting a final agreement.

 

[Toby Warren]

For me it's not the money but the time that causes the issue. My wife and I both work and have a young son, getting the balance right between my hobby and family is always a tough line to tread.

Money doesn't fix that issue but if there was payment it might help - but the tax rates would mean many people get less than half the fee involved so the number would need to be reasonable.

 

[TheBFG]

back at the start of this thread think it was Dixie that said "if we pay refs they become accountable" or something like that and there is the problem I think. Going back a number of years wendyball refs weren't paid (at top levels) just given "expenses" then they became fulltime refs as their "job" and suddenly they're getting a slagging from most coaches in the post match interviews! If a player has a bad game he gets a roasting in the press, so why not the ref?

We all go out to do our best, but be handing over a little brown envelope at the end of the game suddenly makes it a different issue.

As it is now, we get our expense via the society through (WTR) the on-line booking system, no interaction with the clubs no issues over £'s, it's easy and causes no problems. I have never reffed for money and never will, that said if it changes in my "lifetime" I guess i'll have to review it :shrug:

Oh yes and we get free kit! (but that's due to a very generous sponsor!)

 

[Browner]

Here is a honest summary of my rugby refereeing experience.

1976 - 2004 (u12 - u39 as a player ). Never did anyone discuss, coerce, recruit , or suggest refereeing to me.

2004 - Son joins U6's , Browner assists U7 coach & starts refereeing U7 due to 'age group need'

2004 * complete mini/midi ref course ( to be covered by insurance u7-u11) .
2005 * complete Entry Level 1 / 2 was given my 1st Law Book & acme thunderer.
* volunteer to ref local schools and older age grades within own club + fill in when senior sides left unreffed
* Join local society , purchased own society shorts/shirt/socks etc

Regular assessments.

 

[SimonSmith]

I agree with Jamo.

The obsession is getting the next National Panel or International referee, rather than building and maintaining a strong body of referees who will be in it for the medium to long term.

There are too many examples that can be cited, over here, of the next Bright Young Thing who all of a sudden disappears. In the meantime other referees who don't fit that demographic profile are denied the stretch opportunities. It's at the absurd point that referees with but 6 matches under their belts are invited to High Potential camps, not because they're great referees-in-waiting, but because they can run a high bleep number.

Referees will referee because they want to. Money, or kit, won't be the key factors. They can help influence the stay/go decision, but if a referee decides to quit, I doubt if $50 a game will keep him/her. Different referees will find a different motivation to do it. Some like to give back to the game; some like the challenge; some because it's the only way of staying in touch with the game; still others simply because they enjoy the 80 minutes, and nothing more than that. Referee bodies have got to find those people and show them that they can enjoy refereeing. As a value proposition, and knowing the millennials as I do through work, there isn't much that's compelling for youngsters, especially in the USA.

I started playing when I was 9, and kept going until 22/23. I spent a year in France playing rugby before University. I had to stop playing through injury, so I took up refereeing, and I've stuck with it, because on balance I get more positive than negative from it; it also keeps me off the streets on a Saturday. But it's a lonely grind. I see the other referees if there's a tournament or an AGM. And that's it. There are very few kids I know who are going to sign up for it, for the long term. Throw in the fact that one of the defining characteristics of that demographic is the need for ongoing positive feedback, not something that you get every Saturday... You have a problem.

Here's how seriously USA Rugby is taking it. Instead of doubling down on referee recruitment and development, they've instead been tasked with owning USA Wheelchair Rugby.