Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

[didds]

Do I invest in a referee who wasn't passionate enough to ref in his 20s but now is in his 40s, has a greater propensity to (possible) injury, a likely shorter life at the top and has a wife, 4 kids and a mortgage to juggle ... or go with a youngster.

... who may soon have a wife,4 kids, mortgage etc etc etc ;-)

didds

 

[ddjamo]

is anyone going to point out the big pink elephant in the room? that is - the system does not increase the longevity of referees one single bit?

example: mr. 24y/o winger...very fast, the look they want, etc. "hey winger...you should referee...the way you run, your personality, your intelligence, your beep score...you could do very well...you ARE the right age...have you ever thought how cool it would be to referee on the big stage?" "hell yeah," says mr. winger and off he goes...trades in his shorts for society shorts and within 1 year he's elevated past the 30's and 40's guys to a list and expected to really catch on - because he has "what it takes."

now mr. winger doesn't make it very high. most don't. well...hardly any ever do. now is mr. winger going to settle into his say grade 6, start doing the normal things referees do, join the ranks and hang out with the guys he passed by on his way up the ladder?

nope - he quits.

so look at the end result. wasted time, effort and funds. pissed off the middle aged guys, some quit and some swear to never support the system that passed them over due to ageism.

now there are less referees and less middle aged guys willing to help "the system." so back to the search - identify another handful, tell them they are great - repeat the 2-3 year process.

I have seen it happen over and over and over in the US and (not nearly as frequent) in ontario. if there is data supporting the current system showing that it is in fact successful - please post.

when I was in scotland in '12 I met two young guys that were already doing lower level internationals. I was really looking forward to seeing them on tv some day. in '13 when mcmenemy came over to toronto I asked him about the young men - he said they both capped out and quit the gig. one went on to work in the family biz and the other went back to playing. then I heard that 2 guys around 40 that I had met gave it up due to the "system."

explain to me how all of this makes sense?

 

[ddjamo]

but not to be one that criticizes without helping...

why not have clearly defined pathways? make it known that the younger guys will do X as they progress...but the older guys get to do X. and at that point the best is identified and eligible to do X. also, what's wrong with the young guys working the line for the senior refs? if I were 25 I would much prefer to learn from a guy like womble than a clipboard as an example. then the young guys learn to respect the work and time the senior refs have put in. the current system (at least in the US) draws a very distinct line between senior refs and the hyper promoted young guys which leads to many issues. the system is not sustainable IMO.

 

[OB..]

... or how about the young centre who was fast tracked and became arguably the best referee in the world? (Chris White)

Obviously most will not realistically expect that, not even Chris, but we need some form of data rather than anecdotal evidence.

 

[SimonSmith]

Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.

 

[L'irlandais]

Oh, YES he did!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.

Ditto

 

[Dave Sherwin]

I was busting myself worrying about grades and promotion, and it was starting to show in my refereeing. Getting a bit fussy, and constantly tweaking and refining according to the last piece of advice I got. Someone sat me down and just told me to relax and referee my natural game, and enjoy it for what you get out of it. If you get promoted, great. If not, great as well, because you'll be happy and refereeing at the height of your potential. I thought on that, and took that approach with me.

Couldn't agree more. I had exactly this discussion with Biggsy (UK refs will know) some time ago, and trite though it sounds, it was the best piece of coaching I ever received. My style became more relaxed, players responded positively and stodgy progress turned into very rapid progress. Similarly, the first significant step forward I made was after refereeing in Dubai where I had an epileptic fit on the morning of the first day of the Sevens and proceeded to referee in something of a semi-conscious haze for the next three days, ending up with the fourth ranking final. When my brain was too mushy to think about all the detail, I relaxed and refereed my best. NOTE: refereeing following a fit is a BAD thing unless you've been invited to Dubai and aren't going to miss the chance for all the tea in China!

 

[OB..]

Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.

If you have been collecting and analysing data, that's great. As reported it sounded anecdotal (more interesting that way than dry statistics - unless you happen to be a statistician!)

 

[Browner]

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/features/real-rugby-stories-ref-coach-and-player/

Any 15 yro that can competently handle fixtures involvong the 2nd xv of a L4 club, must have ability beyond his years.

 

[Novice-Ref]

Thanks for everyone's comments, they seem to be consistent with what I have experienced.

I joined my local society last year, I do consider myself ambitious and not really contrained by my lifestyle from doing what I want to do

I was told to move up the ladder I needed 1. to be fit 2. get plenty of experience 3. Be committed

For my part

1. I joined a gym and through running and rowing I am now 13 stone down from 17.5 two years ago. I have been told that I achieved the highest yo-yo score in the society.

2. Last season I refereed 80 games and am nearly at 50 so far this season

3. I have thrown myself into analysis, research, meetings and indeed probably learnt a lot about the laws of rugby that perhaps I should already have known. I have given the society virtually no constraint on where or when I referee

For the society

I have had continual support and last season went on exchange whenever asked, I was observed/assessed 15 times and invited to attend Federation meetings to help my development

At the end of my first season I was graded to level 6.

This season I have tried to maintain my commitment but have been told from many sources that I will not be going any further and indeed when the RFU take the level 6 refs, I wont be required.

I am 48 years old

To be frank, I would have preferred to have been told I didn't have the ability to beyond level 6 than using age. I can't influence my age.

My View

To the people who say I should have taken up reffing 20 years ago, no chance. For me rugby is about playing the game, officiating is second best. I don't understand the obsession with bringing on really young refs. Surely a good 10-15 years playing is a better grounding combined with Sunday and midweek refereeing? This can leave a good 20 year refereeing career for those who want it.

In hindsight I wish I had started reffing earlier in my life. I always held the view that playing and reffing were mutually exclusive. There should have been someone out there making the point that you could do both.

Personally I do feel a bit irked when I hear stories of young refs who have been appointed to games beyond their ability on the basis that they are showing potential. I was always taught in business that you shouldn't promote someone until they have proven themselves to be able to perform in the role.

As for the future I am sure I could referee at a higher level for at least another 5-8 years. If I recruited someone into a role and they performed at that level for that length of time, I would be happy.

As is, I guess after next season, I am on the downhill. School games on a Saturday morning are good along with colts on a Sunday. As for Saturday afternoon, I haven't stopped playing fully, I may well have a bit more social rugby in me yet!

Regards

 

[Browner]

48, one season, @L6, yoyo, well done.

It sounds like 'potential' to me, perhaps not for Showbiz, but why not L5 -> L2 or ARing etc... ( rhetorical)

 

[ddjamo]

Thanks for everyone's comments, they seem to be consistent with what I have experienced.

I joined my local society last year, I do consider myself ambitious and not really contrained by my lifestyle from doing what I want to do

I was told to move up the ladder I needed 1. to be fit 2. get plenty of experience 3. Be committed

For my part

1. I joined a gym and through running and rowing I am now 13 stone down from 17.5 two years ago. I have been told that I achieved the highest yo-yo score in the society.

2. Last season I refereed 80 games and am nearly at 50 so far this season

3. I have thrown myself into analysis, research, meetings and indeed probably learnt a lot about the laws of rugby that perhaps I should already have known. I have given the society virtually no constraint on where or when I referee

For the society

I have had continual support and last season went on exchange whenever asked, I was observed/assessed 15 times and invited to attend Federation meetings to help my development

At the end of my first season I was graded to level 6.

This season I have tried to maintain my commitment but have been told from many sources that I will not be going any further and indeed when the RFU take the level 6 refs, I wont be required.

I am 48 years old

To be frank, I would have preferred to have been told I didn't have the ability to beyond level 6 than using age. I can't influence my age.

My View

To the people who say I should have taken up reffing 20 years ago, no chance. For me rugby is about playing the game, officiating is second best. I don't understand the obsession with bringing on really young refs. Surely a good 10-15 years playing is a better grounding combined with Sunday and midweek refereeing? This can leave a good 20 year refereeing career for those who want it.

In hindsight I wish I had started reffing earlier in my life. I always held the view that playing and reffing were mutually exclusive. There should have been someone out there making the point that you could do both.

Personally I do feel a bit irked when I hear stories of young refs who have been appointed to games beyond their ability on the basis that they are showing potential. I was always taught in business that you shouldn't promote someone until they have proven themselves to be able to perform in the role.

As for the future I am sure I could referee at a higher level for at least another 5-8 years. If I recruited someone into a role and they performed at that level for that length of time, I would be happy.

As is, I guess after next season, I am on the downhill. School games on a Saturday morning are good along with colts on a Sunday. As for Saturday afternoon, I haven't stopped playing fully, I may well have a bit more social rugby in me yet!

Regards

what are your feelings about helping the "powers that be" in the future; assessing, coaching, etc.?

 

[Novice-Ref]

Whatever your rugby interests, there is plenty of volunteer work to do both whilst playing, refereeing or after your legs have given up the game. Anyone with an interest should look up the RFU "keep your boots on" campaign.

 

[tim White]

From what I've seen playing AND refereeing affects negatively BOTH your playing and refereeing.

Unless you prefer refereeing I would stick to playing for as long as you can at the level you are happy to play at.

ALSO;

Some refereeing does help you as a COACH, Some COACHING can help you as a referee.
Being a Coach does not make you better than the referee, being a referee does not make you better than the coach.
:chin:

 

[ChrisR]

Some refereeing does help you as a COACH, Some COACHING can help you as a referee.
Being a Coach does not make you better than the referee, being a referee does not make you better than the coach.

Agree to a degree. As a coach who referees the trap to avoid is getting caught up in the game from a coaches perspective. Absolutely agree that refereeing advances a coaches skill.