Grab tackle involving legs

crossref


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funny enough I had this towards the end of the season in a junior representative match. A player did a judo throw where his leg was very much involved. as he did it the ball carrier offloaded and I played on, but at the next break in play I told the tackler I didn't want to see it again as I considered it dangerous. 2 mins later he does the same thing, this time I blew straight away and gave a PK and gave him the bollocking it deserved! just after that he was subbed, however in the bar after the players father came up to me and asked me what the PK was for, so I told him that I believed it to be dangerous as it was in my view a trip and that he was lucky not to get a YC as I'd already warned him, the father said "you're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

why didn't you give him a YC ? seeing as he had already had a specific warning?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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why didn't you give him a YC ? seeing as he had already had a specific warning?

I agree x2. Possibly explains why he's been doing it all season if Daddy is to be believed. I would also tell Daddy to "Go and have sex with himself" too.
 

TheBFG


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why didn't you give him a YC ? seeing as he had already had a specific warning?

:shrug: not sure, guess because I'd not pinged the first one :shrug:
 

leaguerefaus


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Here's a couple more angles of the tackle.
Angle 1
Angle 2

Angle 3 - this is the better angle but also shows the broken leg. It's a bit yuck but no bones show!
After viewing all the angles I am now 100% convinced there is nothing at all wrong with the tackle.
 

Browner

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funny enough I had this towards the end of the season in a junior representative match. A player did a judo throw where his leg was very much involved. as he did it the ball carrier offloaded and I played on, but at the next break in play I told the tackler I didn't want to see it again as I considered it dangerous. 2 mins later he does the same thing, this time I blew straight away and gave a PK and gave him the bollocking it deserved! just after that he was subbed, however in the bar after the players father came up to me and asked me what the PK was for, so I told him that I believed it to be dangerous as it was in my view a trip and that he was lucky not to get a YC as I'd already warned him, the father said "you're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

Ah ha ... I can see the mistake you made BFG, you thought the parent was genuinely interested in getting a wider game safety perspective beyond his sons self interest or success, and therefore , reluctantly i find myself wholly agreeing with the dads blunt analysis , You were indeed a fool ! :biggrin:
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Penalty and possible yellow card for me and I have given them.
I usually say it's dangerous play and rarely get questioned by players. Most know they cant do it.
 

Browner

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..... however in the bar after the players father came up to me and asked me what the PK was for, so I told him that I believed it to be dangerous as it was in my view a trip and that he was lucky not to get a YC as I'd already warned him, the father said "you're a fool, he's been doing that all season" and walked off!

If a 'parent' wants to question a referee on his match decisions in the bar, then ask him to bring an representative official with him, somehow we have to rid the game of the notion that referees are to be fired at in this way, if parent aspires to assess you then he should go spend his time getting trained and knowing at least a few Laws!

TEoTW !
 

Crucial

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If a 'parent' wants to question a referee on his match decisions in the bar, then ask him to bring an representative official with him, somehow we have to rid the game of the notion that referees are to be fired at in this way, if parent aspires to assess you then he should go spend his time getting trained and knowing at least a few Laws!

TEoTW !


I'm sorry, but that is the type of arrogant defensive approach that creates the 'us and them' feeling at games. If you really want referees to be a seperate entity to the rest of the game then by all means isolate yourself like this.
Put is this way, if you made an on field call and the player suggested that you attended a few coaching sessions and had a better fitness regime because otherwise you aren't qualified to comment you'd be rather miffed I guess?
It could well be that the parent was being a tosser, but it could also be that he is genuinely interested in understanding what happened. It's most likely that his son didn't feel like he could approach you and ask so his father did instead.

I have experienced this myself as both a coach and parent when trying to ask a question of a ref well after the game, when the tension has dissipated. It's not meant to be a criticism, or thinking that I know better. It can be quite enlightening to have the ref explain his reasons and you can usually understand the situation and thought process better. It humanises things. But if the ref takes your suggested approach, I usually walk away thinking I was probably right in my thinking and he was being defensive because he wouldn't/ couldn't admit error.


Anyway, back on topic. George Gregan used to jump on Jonah Lomu's back and tangle legs with him to bring him down.
 

Rushforth


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I have experienced this myself as both a coach and parent when trying to ask a question of a ref well after the game, when the tension has dissipated. It's not meant to be a criticism, or thinking that I know better. It can be quite enlightening to have the ref explain his reasons and you can usually understand the situation and thought process better. It humanises things.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think you understand - in the slightest - what refereeing kids is like.

On the one hand, we are aware of a duty of care for safety. On the other, we all would like to see a good game of rugby (continuity of play and fair contest).

Speaking for myself, I do not care about who wins or loses, and I do not even care if I make howlers in law, but I do care that kids or for that matter any adult players - including pros - don't get serious injuries. I therefore also care - when I am not refereeing, but discussing after the match or online - about the example pros or other adults give, on TV or simply in a club situation.

That said, if a parent comes round after the match - however politely - I am not interested in them trying to "ask a question". Not because I have an arrogant defensive approach, but because it adds no value whatsoever. If I made mistakes, I will reflect on how to do better, but I don't need a parent to help me to do that.
 

Crucial

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I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think you understand - in the slightest - what refereeing kids is like.

On the one hand, we are aware of a duty of care for safety. On the other, we all would like to see a good game of rugby (continuity of play and fair contest).

Speaking for myself, I do not care about who wins or loses, and I do not even care if I make howlers in law, but I do care that kids or for that matter any adult players - including pros - don't get serious injuries. I therefore also care - when I am not refereeing, but discussing after the match or online - about the example pros or other adults give, on TV or simply in a club situation.

That said, if a parent comes round after the match - however politely - I am not interested in them trying to "ask a question". Not because I have an arrogant defensive approach, but because it adds no value whatsoever. If I made mistakes, I will reflect on how to do better, but I don't need a parent to help me to do that.

I found myself nodding at everything you wrote..until the last part of the last sentence.

If you are thinking that parent is trying to 'help you reflect on your errors' then you are being defensive. If you were to explain to that parent just what you explained in the rest of your post I daresay you would get that very message through to a significant portion of them and help change attitudes.
We all know that parents can get way too involved in their kid's sports, but surely communication will change attitudes far better than rules or non engagement.
I fully respect anyone's right to not engage in a post match argument, and I also fully expect team management to support you if someone goes down that path and you choose not to engage.
What I am suggesting is that if you have a pre-ordained attitude of not engaging then this only serves to widen the gap between the referees and the remainder of the game.
Maybe I am overly optimistic regarding behaviour but I can tell you that many parents/ players etc would love to hear what you said in the first part of your post and be totally accepting of that. Instead they just think you are being aloof (or worse).
It is an ingrained problem right across the game and even worse at pro level where trial by media is par for the course.
You do a great job being out there refereeing. Be proud of that and own it. Be part of the game instead of being a game in isolation with other refs.
I really feel for the refs I see turning up to games by themselves then wandering back to their cars straight after by themselves again because they aren't included or want to avoid possible confrontation. Rugby isn't (or shouldn't) be about that.
Sometimes those other folk want to talk to you about things that happened in the game because they are actually trying to be inclusive. I'd love to see clubs and schools be more inclusive with refs and drive behaviour around it as well. FFS, if we can bash the crap out of each other on the field as players, then have a drink together after, surely we can do the same to the ref.
It takes two to tango though.
 

Browner

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I'm sorry, but that is the type of arrogant defensive approach that creates the 'us and them' feeling at games. If you really want referees to be a seperate entity to the rest of the game then by all means isolate yourself like this.
Put is this way, if you made an on field call and the player suggested that you attended a few coaching sessions and had a better fitness regime because otherwise you aren't qualified to comment you'd be rather miffed I guess?
It could well be that the parent was being a tosser, but it could also be that he is genuinely interested in understanding what happened. It's most likely that his son didn't feel like he could approach you and ask so his father did instead.

I have experienced this myself as both a coach and parent when trying to ask a question of a ref well after the game, when the tension has dissipated. It's not meant to be a criticism, or thinking that I know better. It can be quite enlightening to have the ref explain his reasons and you can usually understand the situation and thought process better. It humanises things. But if the ref takes your suggested approach, I usually walk away thinking I was probably right in my thinking and he was being defensive because he wouldn't/ couldn't admit error.

Hi crucial
Its not about creating a them & us situation , Its a reflection of, and a plan for dissuading the increasing trend of post match criticism of referees.

What did you plan to say to the referee that couldn't be witnessed ?

Seriously though, As BFG found out, this parent wasnt at all interested in the general good of the code, all he wanted to do was have a spikey dig at the referee. My suggestion will not deter 'bonafide enlightenment' opportunities, ( which are always welcome, and with a "representative" their may invariably follow a decent debate/ two way communique) but it will deter those seeking to get their jaundiced jab into the referees ears - which is what happened to BFG. Its not arrogance, it's a 'handling strategy' !

What example is actually being set by that parent? ( possibly in sons presence?) Calls the referee a fool :nono: and to compound it he's seemingly unaccountable for whatever 'jab or venom' is included in his wording :nono:..... Sorry matey, but you wont persuade me that this doesn't need dissuading.

PS....I'm not talking about players / coaches/managers or club officials, they are accountable through their union, by contrast parents generally (?!) arent.
 
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menace


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IMHO there is no legitimate rugby play which involves using feet or legs on an opponent. It is therefore illegal.

OB - this was your response to BFGs judo throw....but I'm very interested in your opinion/thoughts on the tackle that this thread is about? Do you think he deliberately used his legs to bring the BC down?
 

Browner

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I really feel for the refs I see turning up to games by themselves then wandering back to their cars straight after by themselves again because they aren't included or want to avoid possible confrontation. Rugby isn't (or shouldn't) be about that.

You've identified the problem.
you see these refs do you? So do I.
Ask yourself why they do that? Maybe It's because of the trends that you identify - Maybe they are tiring of it, across a whole season I rate my volunteer referee postmatch experience as 3/10 , occasionally its brill, but mostly its lonely unappreciated and unrewarding even before the jabbings.

I know I'm not alone in this, I x-player friend of mine joined his society ( with a competent private school referee cv) he lasted 6weeks before he knocked it on the head, the whole experience drained his energy enthusiasm - its a real shame.
 

SimonSmith


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I've tended to find, with the odd BFG-type exception, that in general referees can tend to either make a contribution to improving the dialog, or make it worse.

I did my hard yards with kids in Hampshire on my way up to, and whilst, a B2.

I made a point of hanging around afterwards and talking to whoever was there. Even SimonThomas when he turned up :)

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of bad interactions I've had. Sometimes I would be explaining, sometimes debating, but always trying to engage. I also remembered that I had a responsibility to my Society, as well as the refereeing community writ large, to act as an ambassador. It's something easy to forget. My judgment rules on the field, but I am but one constituent part of a wider community.

And remember - sometimes a parent or coach will tell you exactly what you need to hear.
 

Drift


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Here's a couple more angles of the tackle.
Angle 1
Angle 2

Angle 3 - this is the better angle but also shows the broken leg. It's a bit yuck but no bones show!

The legs go behind the player, they aren't used to trip the player up. That's play on IMO.
 

Taff


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The legs go behind the player, they aren't used to trip the player up.
So what?

I can trip you up from behind no problem.

I'm struggling to understand why this thread has gone on so far. It's blatantly dangerous - end of story.
 
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RobLev

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The legs go behind the player, they aren't used to trip the player up. That's play on IMO.

Disagree; look at this screengrab from the final video, (the one which shows the break): the tackler's left knee/shin is making contact with the ball carrier's ankle, which takes him down. That (with the studs catching in the turf rather than sliding across it) is what breaks the ankle IMHO.

Trip1.jpg
 

Dickie E


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I'm struggling to understand why this thread has gone on so far. It's blatantly dangerous - end of story.

Beware of anyone who says they know. Trust me, they don't, or they wouldn't have to say they did.
Harvey Fierstein
 

menace


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The legs go behind the player, they aren't used to trip the player up. That's play on IMO.

I can understand your POV.
I think the classic interpretation of a trip is when the player takes a swipe at the BC s legs from in front or behind but isn't usually grabbing/holding them.

The law in 10.4 under dangerous play and misconduct merely says
[LAWS](d) Tripping. A player must not trip an opponent with the leg or foot.
Sanction: Penalty kick
[/LAWS]

Clearly there is nothing in that law that suggests a player does or does not need to be held. As a result I'm just challenging the thinking on the current accepted POV of what constitutes a trip. I understand that I'm out on a limb here as the accepted convention on what is tripping is currently mightier than the law as writ. (I've certainly been attacked by my peers locally for even raising it for discussion).
Can we agree that the tacklers legs/feet are used on the legs of the BC? Therefore isn't that now a trip?
I think it's animal nature in hunting that a smaller attacking animal will naturally attack the legs to bring down a bigger animal quickly. So in that sense I feel the movement towards the leg in this is also more a deliberate act than just accidental/physics. There in it shows the danger it poses. It goes back to why is 'tripping' considered dangerous/foul play?

I'm willing to concede defeat and accept it as 'an accident as part of the game' when I hear a good reasoning...I'm just yet to hear it. I also concede that I'd probably remain with accepted convention of my peers and I would probably not sanction this if I saw it in my game. I'd probably want to but I also can't be a rogue referee applying things that no one else would.

Ps. Please note I've raised this because of the action, not the outcome. But the outcome does serve a convenient purpose to show how dangerous tripping can be. I make no apology for that.
 
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