Grounding

AlanT


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What's the call ...

Attacker runs into goal. In placing the ball downwards (assume exactly vertical direction) seems to lose control but you are not sure if it was loss of control just before grounding. Attacker runs away (no second attempt at grounding). Defender gets to ball and applies downward pressure.
 

Davet

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If in possession then downward presure is not required, all he need do is touch the ball to the ground. If not in possession then downward pressure is required

If he held the ball and touched it to the ground, try.

If he lost the ball straight down/backwards, then applied downward pressure, try

If he lost the ball before it touched the ground, and it went atraight down/ backwards, and he made no further contact - play on.

If he lost possession before it touched the ground and it went forward then 5m scrum, defenders put-in.

Your call.
 

tim White


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either:
a. he did ground it -try :bday:
b. he didn't ground it -22 drop-out and buy a jug of beer :eek:

Doubt about grounding by attacker only applies when you have multiple players involved and you are uncertain which of them grounded the ball first:chin:
 

SimonSmith


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either:
a. he did ground it -try :bday:
b. he didn't ground it -22 drop-out and buy a jug of beer :eek:

Doubt about grounding by attacker only applies when you have multiple players involved and you are uncertain which of them grounded the ball first:chin:

If he didn't ground it, didn't he knock it on in goal?
 

Davet

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Probably - but we are asked to assume it went straight down.
 

andyscott


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straight down is a knock on in my book.

If you are not certain, then knock on in this case.
 

Deeps


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A player in the act of scoring should leave no doubt in anyone's mind or runs the risk of failure. :Looser:
 

andyscott


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Wrong book.



Why?

No a player can never drop the ball straight down, as in the ball carriers midline, unless it was held between his legs.
It's either forward, from his hands straight down, still is in front of his midline, or backwards from his hands. And wrong book, not if I am in the middle ;)

Because that was the two options as described.

If you can't be certain don't give the try.
 

SimonSmith


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I'm still sticking - kinda - with my first point.

He has carried the ball in-goal. There are one of three options:
Grounded properly - try.
Lost control - depends on the direction. If backwards, then 22m. If forwards, then scrum 5, defending.

Without knowing the direction, can't call it.
 

Dixie


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No a player can never drop the ball straight down, as in the ball carriers midline, unless it was held between his legs.
It's either forward, from his hands straight down, still is in front of his midline, or backwards from his hands.
I sense a return to the debate between the classic and the momentum view of life on a rugby pitch
 

OB..


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No a player can never drop the ball straight down, as in the ball carriers midline, unless it was held between his legs.
It's either forward, from his hands straight down, still is in front of his midline, or backwards from his hands. And wrong book, not if I am in the middle ;)

Law 12 Definition A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, [...]

No reference to the body at all, just what happens to the ball.

I have never heard of your interpretation before. It would mean that even if he released the ball slightly backwards it would be a knock-on in your terms unless it went back past his midline.

Does anybody else share his view?
 

Simon Thomas


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Does anybody else share his view?

I am afraid I disagree with you AndyScott.

A knock on is defined by ball going forward after loss of possession; there is no reference in Law to hands, body, or what you call the ball carriers mid-line.
 

Davet

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Agree with OB and ST.

The forward element is specified in law as being the direction of travel of the ball in relation to the opponents dead ball line.

Nothing to do with its trajectory relative to the player.

And unlike the forward pass debate, momentum is wholly irrelevant - it creeps in there because of clumsy wording, here there is no worry about the direction of the pass - it's ONLY the direction the ball moves in.

I think you have the wrong book, Andy.
 

andyscott


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I am afraid I disagree with you AndyScott.

A knock on is defined by ball going forward after loss of possession; there is no reference in Law to hands, body, or what you call the ball carriers mid-line.

Exactly there is no reference to anything, therefore i have to assume certain things.

I will give you an example. A ball carrier, with his arms out stretched, he drops the ball but it lands in front of the feet of the ball carrier but behind his outstretched arms.

Knock on or not?
 

OB..


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And unlike the forward pass debate, momentum is wholly irrelevant - it creeps in there because of clumsy wording.
You do keep trying! :)

It "creeps in" because otherwise the game would be virtually impossible above jogging speed.
 

Davet

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Exactly there is no reference to anything, therefore i have to assume certain things.

I will give you an example. A ball carrier, with his arms out stretched, he drops the ball but it lands in front of the feet of the ball carrier but behind his outstretched arms.

Knock on or not?

Wrong

The Law DOES give reference.

It defines "forward" as being in the direction of the opponents dead ball line.

A knock on is when (inter alia) the player loses possession of the ball and it (ie the ball) goes forward

So if you stand still with your arms outstretched and drop the ball so that it drops vertically downwards then it has NOT travelled in the direction of the opponents dead ball line, therefore it has not gone forward. Where it lands in relation to the ex-ballcarrier is of absolutely no consequence.
 

andyscott


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So if you stand still with your arms outstretched and drop the ball so that it drops vertically downwards then it has NOT travelled in the direction of the opponents dead ball line, therefore it has not gone forward. Where it lands in relation to the ex-ballcarrier is of absolutely no consequence.

Yes i stand corrected as of what is forward, yet if the above happened I would give a knock on and I doubt anyone would disagree.

I just apply the duck principle if someone drops the ball. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.
 

Phil E


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Yes i stand corrected as of what is forward, yet if the above happened I would give a knock on and I doubt anyone would disagree.

I just apply the duck principle if someone drops the ball. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

So it's a duck, not a knock on :confused: :rolleyes:
 
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