[INTERNATIONAL] Guirado's disallowed try

[DocY]

A not-so-commented on incident in the Wales-France game: the French hooker's disallowed try after a stupid pass from his opposite number - called back for no advantage.

This has had me thinking: if the Welsh hooker had kicked the ball, it'd have probably been advantage over - a kick under no pressure.
So why would you treat a big wound-up pass differently? He was still under no pressure and used the ball as he wished.

I can see a few arguments either way, but it seems a bit of an inconsistency.

 

[mcroker]

I was surprised to see it go back - I thought Wales had had the opportunity to tactically use the ball as they (somewhat strangely) saw fit.

 

[Decorily]

I was surprised to see it go back - I thought Wales had had the opportunity to tactically use the ball as they (somewhat strangely) saw fit.

And opportunity to tactically gain an advantage and gaining an advantage are not the same!

 

[crossref]

.

This has had me thinking: if the Welsh hooker had kicked the ball, it'd have probably been advantage over - a kick under no pressure.
So why would you treat a big wound-up pass differently? He was still under no pressure and used the ball as he wished.

I can see a few arguments either way, but it seems a bit of an inconsistency.

I agree

 

[Rich_NL]

It's an interesting point. I think with a kick you have the territorial gain, and that is your advantage. If someone kicked it five metres sideways and back I'd probably mentally treat that as a pass - if it was an unpressured low-angle kick that still got charged down, I'd call the advantage back. In any case, I generally call advantage over if the ball's well in the air and over the defensive line. Freedom to play is more to do with a couple of actions; three decent passes, or a pass and a positive breakdown near/over the gainline, etc.

But it's a good thought to take into future games!

 

[Phil E]

And opportunity to tactically gain an advantage and gaining an advantage are not the same!

Exactly.
[LAWS]Law 7
1. Advantage :
d. Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.[/LAWS]

if it was an unpressured low-angle kick that still got charged down, I'd call the advantage back.

If it's charged down then by definition the kick was under pressure?

 

[crossref]

It's an interesting point. I think with a kick you have the territorial gain, and that is your advantage. If someone kicked it five metres sideways and back I'd probably mentally treat that as a pass - if it was an unpressured low-angle kick that still got charged down, I'd call the advantage back. In any case, I generally call advantage over if the ball's well in the air and over the defensive line. Freedom to play is more to do with a couple of actions; three decent passes, or a pass and a positive breakdown near/over the gainline, etc.

But it's a good thought to take into future games!

If a kick is territorial gain , then what is an example of tactical gain ? Making it dead perhaps ?

 

[mcroker]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]May be tactical. The non-offending team is free to play the ball as they wish.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Just because they wish to try a somewhat puzzling tactic, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have a tactical advantage. I don't think they were under any real pressure when they made the decision...

 

[Phil E]

If a kick is territorial gain , then what is an example of tactical gain ? Making it dead perhaps ?

Sideways kick pass to the winger who is in the open with no one marking him.

 

[crossref]

Sideways kick pass to the winger who is in the open with no one marking him.

Isn't that what happened for Wales (pass instead of kick)

 

[Dickie E]

My decision point is: did they get the same outcome as if they'd won the scrum.

2 or 3 passes under no pressure => advantage over.

Wales very lucky.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This has had me thinking: if the Welsh hooker had kicked the ball, it'd have probably been advantage over - a kick under no pressure.
So why would you treat a big wound-up pass differently? He was still under no pressure and used the ball as he wished..

[LAWS]Law 7.1. Advantage:
b. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
c. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.[/LAWS]

Because the "advantage over" call after a kick then comes from the "b" or "c" criteria - territorial. A wound up pass gives no territorial advantage.

Sevu Reece had an intercept try called back in the NZL v AUS game at Eden Park after an advantage Gold from a Black knock-on at kick off. There were three passes, and the fourth was intercepted, but referee Jaco Peyper called it back for the scrum because, in his words "It was all behind the advantage line - they had to push their passes". I am quite sure that, had Genia kicked the ball, Peyper would have called advantage over

 

[DocY]

[LAWS]Law 7.1. Advantage:
b. May be territorial. Play has moved towards the offending team’s dead-ball line.
c. May be a combination of tactical and territorial.[/LAWS]

Because the "advantage over" call after a kick then comes from the "b" or "c" criteria - territorial. A wound up pass gives no territorial advantage.

My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished.

Sevu Reece had an intercept try called back in the NZL v AUS game at Eden Park after an advantage Gold from a Black knock-on at kick off. There were three passes, and the fourth was intercepted, but referee Jaco Peyper called it back for the scrum because, in his words "It was all behind the advantage line - they had to push their passes". I am quite sure that, had Genia kicked the ball, Peyper would have called advantage over

Not entirely sure what he means by pushing passes, but if he meant they were under pressure then you couldn't call that tactical advantage. And Peyper does tend to let scrum advantages go on a little while anyway.

 

[crossref]

My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished..

That's often been said, but in the pro game we are seeing examples of refs waiting to see the outcome before calling it

The first one I remember was JP Doyle when the kick was for touch, he could see it was going out and called Adv Over .... and then when wind blew it back in field he added .. Nearly. And went back for the scrum


We discussed it here

(In this instance the advantage they were seeking was to make it dead ..ie

being 20m upfield and dead = adv over
Being 20m upfield and live = no advantage

 

[Ian_Cook]

That's often been said, but in the pro game we are seeing examples of refs waiting to see the outcome before calling it

The first one I remember was JP Doyle when the kick was for touch, he could see it was going out and called Adv Over .... and then when wind blew it back in field he added .. Nearly. And went back for the scrum


We discussed it here

(In this instance the advantage they were seeking was to make it dead ..

being 20m upfield and dead = adv over
Being 20m upfield and live = no advantage

I guess a good argument could be made that this would be in accord with what Law 7 says about advantage having to be "clear and real"

[LAWS]Law 7.1 Advantage:
d. Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

I like that ... But the implication is that we should , indeed, be waiting for the outcome of a kick to declare adv over, not just the action of kicking

 

[didds]

My understanding (though admittedly I didn't always referee it this way) is that a kick under no pressure, regardless of the outcome, was considered tactical advantage as the team had the opportunity to use the ball as they wished.

And that is the oft stated point on these forums.

 

[Rich_NL]

So the same is presumably true for a single pass, not 2 or 3, under no pressure - since they had the freedom to kick but chose not to?

In fact by that logic, any voluntary action under no pressure is scrum advantage over.

 

[crossref]

Territory is part of it .. kicks go forward and passes go backwards

 

[mcroker]

Territory is part of it .. kicks go forward and passes go backwards

Unless Ben Skeen is upstairs, where backwards appears to be optional :eng: