Hand off - excessive force?

Blindpugh


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2018 - World Rugby

A ball-carrier is permitted to hand off an opponent provided excessive force is not used.
Sanction: Penalty.

There has been another thread under Law Changes but coming up as database corrupt?

I was at the Blackheath verses Coventry game (RFU National One - Ref and 2 AR's) and witnessed this Tongan side step/ hand off. Based upon the above World Rugby ruling and previous posts to earlier thread how would you have refereed this situation. Penalty for excessive force or play on?

To start ball rolling I would have said play on.
 

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Taff


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Difficult to tell from a still photograph. :chin:

I assume WR's wording is trying to differentiate between a hand-off and a hit.
 
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crossref


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My feeling is that they introduced a new offence , and therefore we can conclude there are hand offs that in 2017 would have been playon, that in 2018 are now PK
 

SimonSmith


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They're going to have to do something bad for me to consider a hand-off illegal.

That to one side, that law is incredibly badly worded
 

beckett50


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The only point for me here is that the hand off is to the neck.

However, one man's 'play on' is another's 'excessive force', another fudged issue IMO
 

ChrisR

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Until the law says otherwise a fend to the face/neck isn't an issue. Useful image added to my "How to tackle, NOT!" collection.
 

crossref


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this might give a clue to what is in World Rugby's mind, it's from the crib sheet mapping old 10.4 to new 9

[LAWS]
5. There is no corresponding reference in the sanctions table to new Laws 9.21-9.24. This is intentional from World Rugby as they are of the view that none of these offences will lead to a red card or a citing and therefore are for on-field use by the match officials only.
[/LAWS]

Hand off with excessive force is one of these "new Laws" - so it's clear that WR consider it a lesser offence than striking.

source -
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...ified-Law-Book-2018&highlight=simplified+laws
 

OB..


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Obviously we cannot look at high tackles for guidance, since a hand-off will usually be to the head or face.

If a ball carrier tries to absorb part of the attempted tackle so as to keep the tackler out of effective tackling distance, there will be no danger of a serious hit.

If he tries to push the opponent away, then the initial contact should not be in the form of a serious hit, and the timing of the push might be crucial.

There is no point in arguments based on the wording, so we have to use our judgement and hope some usable criteria emerge fairly rapidly.

(Has it really been a difficult problem in the past?)
 

crossref


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(Has it really been a difficult problem in the past?)

No, it hasn't -- which is why I find it curious that WR have introduced what they themselves call a new Law. WR evidently perceived there to be some sort of problem.
 

OB..


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No, it hasn't -- which is why I find it curious that WR have introduced what they themselves call a new Law. WR evidently perceived there to be some sort of problem.
There was no specific sanction under the old Mode of Play law - we simply had to decide if it was dangerous play.

Having got rid of Law 7, they had to put hand-offs somewhere else and it must have seemed like a good idea to specify a sanction.

I think we are making a mountain out of a molehill
 

crossref


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probably - but it seems to me they have created a new offence, for a hand-off that falls short of dangerous play, but has excessive force.
I don't expect I would ever penalise someone for that..
 

OB..


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probably - but it seems to me they have created a new offence, for a hand-off that falls short of dangerous play, but has excessive force.
I don't expect I would ever penalise someone for that..
Excessive force = dangerous play. I see no need to try and make a distinction, and I certainly do not buy the argument that by using different words they MUST be intending to make a distinction.

Take blindpugh's photo. If the initial contact had been with a bent arm to the throat, followed by a sharp thrust to reach that position, I would suggest that was excessive force.
 

crossref


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It's WR that have made the distinction .. see post 7
. Dangerous play could be a RC
. Excessive force cannot be a RC
 

ChrisR

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Introducing "excessive force" as a prohibition in fending is problematic as "excessive" is entirely subjective and non technical.

If a player fends with a fist or an elbow that is an observable technical error (although one would have to refer back to "Definitions" to find the connection).

Excessive? :chin: How would the referee (or the fender) know it to be excessive until after the fact? And, by what criteria?

This opens Pandora's Box on tackling, too. If there is "excessive force" for fending then surely there must be "excessive force" for tackling. Slippery slope.
 

Taff


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Introducing "excessive force" as a prohibition in fending is problematic as "excessive" is entirely subjective and non technical. .... This opens Pandora's Box on tackling, too. If there is "excessive force" for fending then surely there must be "excessive force" for tackling. Slippery slope.
The man's got a point. :chin:
 

crossref


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See post #7 Excessive Force is something less than dangerous, which would not merit a RC , just a PK
 

Blindpugh


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Introducing "excessive force" as a prohibition in fending is problematic as "excessive" is entirely subjective and non technical.

If a player fends with a fist or an elbow that is an observable technical error (although one would have to refer back to "Definitions" to find the connection).

Excessive? :chin: How would the referee (or the fender) know it to be excessive until after the fact? And, by what criteria?

This opens Pandora's Box on tackling, too. If there is "excessive force" for fending then surely there must be "excessive force" for tackling. Slippery slope.

Totally agree. Ever since I started refereeing back in 2001 what constitutes a legal hand off has been debated at Society meetings.

The guidance we gave then and now is that the arm must be bent before being placed on face/ chin/ head and then straightened (pushed away). If arm is straight or player uses a short arm jab/ punch that is illegal (excessive force).

When refereeing Juniors/ Youth (U13 - 19) I would often get a call from a parent (not knowing the laws) who would say hand offs are illegal. I took pleasure in telling them (and their coach) that this is another local myth!

Having become a Referee Coach and seeing this thread I thought that the picture would be useful discussion point.

The woman sat next to me in stand at “Club” shouted high tackle ref! To which I replied that is a hand off and you are always telling him to tackle around the legs!

Our son posted picture on his Instagram page saying how not to tackle!! Thankfully it was “Club” who sent “Cov” into orbit taking their unbeaten record 62 - 29 :clap:

For me nothing has changed and as ChrisR says it is subjective.
 

crossref


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Well, what changed is they wrote a new law.
What hasn't changed is that we all agree we will ignore it .

But over time our instinctive reaction will fade and what we will be left with is ... A new Law
 

OB..


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Well, what changed is they wrote a new law.
What hasn't changed is that we all agree we will ignore it .

But over time our instinctive reaction will fade and what we will be left with is ... A new Law
We have new wording (because there wasn't any before). I reject the argument that this necessarily means we should rule differently.
 
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