[Law] Hand Off or Fend to the face/head/neck

SimonSmith


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vovonne this is an excellent question, and in my opinion there is no easy answer.

I reckon that hand off's are very rarely penalised, and TBH if you give a PK for 'excessive force' it's going to be a difficult sell.

So what's my advice ?



So first stage has to be to manage it - to talk to the captain and explain what change you want to happen --- so that they can't act surprised when you PK them for it later.
Until you have your reasoning square in your head, don't do this. For change to happen, there needs to be a good reason.

The only reason to stop the hand offs is excessive force - in other words, foul play. If it's foul play, it isn't a case of management, it's a case of PKing it.

It is, as you say, a tricky area. For my money "excessive force" is something delivered with the intent to cause injury as opposed to dislodging the tackler from their tackling position. I'd be wary of something that targets the throat deliberately.

But as I said: don't talk to the skipper until you know exactly what was wrong. And then penalize it.
 

timmad

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Just from observation, the hand-off is less common in the modern club game. Given that taking contact and multiple phases is the way of things, most ball carriers, backs as well as forwards, lead into tackles with the shoulder. Sadly, the firearm fend - often with force - is more common. In recent games I've watched / TJ'd the referee has not pinged early fends which seems to give licence for others to copy.
 

mcroker

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When I have reffed a couple of ladies games, both teams seems to expect that hand-offs were below shoulder line.

The implication was it was in the tournament regs - but in either case I was happy to apply the standard both captains agreed to
 

didds

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So first stage has to be to manage it - to talk to the captain and explain what change you want to happen --- so that they can't act surprised when you PK them for it later.


yes... but I feel a chat with the other skipper is also in order... to explain that all the time their team leaves their faces at a heoight that a hand off can be applied they cant be surprised and you will generally look to allow it unless in extreme circumstances. That way you have madee it clear you are not seeing the handing off team as coming close to being "wrong"but that both sides have a part to oplay in these situations.

didds
 

crossref


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Tbh .. I would be unlikely to penalise any hand off for excessive force

My point was more that for a ref that was going to do that, I think you would need some preparation
 

Shelflife


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Would it be fair to say that a handoff should only hurt their pride as opposed to inflicting an injury/damage on a player ?
 

Jz558


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For what it's worth I agree with Crossref. I can't imagine penalising a player for a hand-off (as defined in the laws) for excessive force. I have genuinely never seen one. What would it look like? In my mind the perfect hand-off is a bent arm, flat palmed driving away motion, however the law does not stipulate that. The law may seem anachronistic but we dont get to pick the laws we like.


I also understand mcroker's view, have experienced it myself and am really happy to accommodate 'local variations' to get a game on however wonder where the mythical information came from.


Of all rugby's problems I genuinely dont believe the hand-off is one. As timmad says, I see very few hand-offs in a game and dropping the shoulder into contact is considerably more dangerous.
 

Dickie E


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I wonder if the "high tackle technique warning" will have any implications for the fend to face? Note the word "either" in the definition:

What is a high tackle technique warning?
A high-risk contact tackle technique warning can be issued to any player where the tackle is upright (i.e. not bent at the waist when tackling), and there is clear and obvious head contact for either player.
 

Flish


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For what it's worth I agree with Crossref. I can't imagine penalising a player for a hand-off (as defined in the laws) for excessive force. I have genuinely never seen one. What would it look like? In my mind the perfect hand-off is a bent arm, flat palmed driving away motion, however the law does not stipulate that. The law may seem anachronistic but we dont get to pick the laws we like.


I have, and yellow carded to boot, hard to describe in words, but it looked all kinds of wrong, ball carrier running at near top speed down the wing, oppo winger some 15m in front crouched low and not looking particularly confident, ball carrier lined him up for the fend, bent arm and straightened at the moment of contact. You could see from the ball carriers body language that his intent was to fend, hard (he could have run around the kids but chose not to), and the result of the impact and the defenders head jolting that it was far closer to a strike with a palm than a fend. With the current guidance about contact to the head you could probably argue a red.
 

crossref


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Was that a handoff with excessive force ?
Or was it just a blow to the head ?

Tbh I think it would be a lot clearer for everyone if hand off to the head was banned , with symmetry for ball carrier and tackler
 

TheBFG


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Questioned asked by another coach (via a ref) saying there are different rulings on the hand off for lower level ladies games, has anyone ever seen them or are they an urban myth?
 

OB..


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Tbh I think it would be a lot clearer for everyone if hand off to the head was banned , with symmetry for ball carrier and tackler
That would make it near impossible to fend anybody coming to tackle low.
 

didds

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That would make it near impossible to fend anybody coming to tackle low.

yes indeed - absolutely ... and where "low" could mean as high as the waist... not necessarily as low as the ankles

didds
 

Flish


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Was that a handoff with excessive force ?
Or was it just a blow to the head ?

Tbh I think it would be a lot clearer for everyone if hand off to the head was banned , with symmetry for ball carrier and tackler

I called it as a handoff with excessive force, i got a puzzled expression, and then a wry grin from the player, he knew what he'd done and he knew I'd seen it.

No contact with the head would in many respects make decisions easier to sell

- - - Updated - - -

Questioned asked by another coach (via a ref) saying there are different rulings on the hand off for lower level ladies games, has anyone ever seen them or are they an urban myth?

Urban myth I believe
 

Decorily

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- - - Updated - - -



Urban myth I believe[/QUOTE]

In some regions there are some variations with regulations which stipulate no hand off above shoulder height.
 

SimonSmith


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- - - Updated - - -



Urban myth I believe

In some regions there are some variations with regulations which stipulate no hand off above shoulder height.[/QUOTE]

Under 18 over here.
 

smeagol


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In some regions there are some variations with regulations which stipulate no hand off above shoulder height

Under 18 over here.

Confirming, makes refereeing 7s at that age grade very interesting.
 

Camquin

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As a point of information, Cambridge full back Joe Tarrant was shown a Yellow Card for to the face in their win against Canterbury yesterday.
I was too far away to get a good view.
 

Balones

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As a point of information, Cambridge full back Joe Tarrant was shown a Yellow Card for to the face in their win against Canterbury yesterday.
I was too far away to get a good view.

The actual offence was aN open hand push/strike to the face to an off the ball player, so wasn’t a hand off. It was an AR call.
 
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