[Law] Hand Off or Fend to the face/head/neck

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,690
Post Likes
2,235
The actual offence was aN open hand push/strike to the face to an off the ball player, so wasn’t a hand off. It was an AR call.

? "push / strike"
Well was it a push (legal) or was it a strike (illegal) ?
 
Last edited:

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,180
Post Likes
318
Doesn’t really matter. It was off the ball and to the head. As far as I can see there wasn’t much force. We don’t need to go down the route of semantics on this one. Both are illegal. Both are a ‘hit’ to the head.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,229
Post Likes
248
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
? "push / strike"
Well was it a push (legal) or was it a strike (illegal) ?

Off the ball as described. ...what more do you want to hear?

Edit. ...Unless you want to differentiate between yellow and red!
 
Last edited:

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,690
Post Likes
2,235
Ok so by off the ball, you mean neither player was the ball carrier ?
Fair enough then
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,180
Post Likes
318
The actual words used by the AR were “15 struck out with a flat hand” and the ref gave his reason to the captain as a “push to the face”. Take your pick.
The player who was struck was a player attached to a ruck.
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,600
Post Likes
278
I was over on the far touch line so too far away to see and player described it to me as a hand off.
AR was in position and I am sure she got the call right.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,690
Post Likes
2,235
The actual words used by the AR were “15 struck out with a flat hand” and the ref gave his reason to the captain as a “push to the face”. Take your pick.
The player who was struck was a player attached to a ruck.

The plot thickens , I wouldnt describe an incident in a ruck as being "off the ball"


So for clarity : this was between two players in a ruck. The player striking out was not the ball carrier ?
 
Last edited:

TigerCraig


Referees in Australia
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
1,463
Post Likes
234
Why are we trying to invent more reasons to blow the whistle? Hand off away!!
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,180
Post Likes
318
The plot thickens , I wouldnt describe an incident in a ruck as being "off the ball"


So for clarity : this was between two players in a ruck. The player striking out was not the ball carrier ?

For even more clarity, the ball had just left the ruck and that was why (probably) the referee did not see it. The No15 entered the ruck area late and the altercation took place. The contact cannot be seen on the video but the AR was right next to the ‘ruck’ since it was very clise to the touchline.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
19,690
Post Likes
2,235
For even more clarity, the ball had just left the ruck and that was why (probably) the referee did not see it. The No15 entered the ruck area late and the altercation took place. The contact cannot be seen on the video but the AR was right next to the ‘ruck’ since it was very clise to the touchline.

So it sounds like a perfectly reasonable decision, and nothing to do with hand offs
 

Balones

Referee Advisor / Assessor
Joined
Oct 24, 2006
Messages
1,180
Post Likes
318
So it sounds like a perfectly reasonable decision, and nothing to do with hand offs

I can agree with that.:) Only wanted to explain what Camquin had thought he’d heard/been told.
 

RemainingInTheGame


Referees in Australia
Joined
May 16, 2022
Messages
7
Post Likes
2
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
In some regions there are some variations with regulations which stipulate no hand off above shoulder height.

Under 18 over here.
[/QUOTE]

@SimonSmith is this AU wide and still current (going by flag colour on posting, so apologies if you are not referencing AU or it's a state thing)?

I ref Juniors in Victoria, U12 pathways law rules it out clearly, but I'd love a clear reference for older juniors if there is one?
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
109
Post Likes
33
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
US Game Management Guidelines call out specifically that
U19: Players may not fend an opponent in the face.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t give any clarity on what is fair or unfair once you get above that age and we’re back to square one…
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,945
Post Likes
1,811
My understanding is that it is legal provided it amounts to a push rather than a hit ie it is the amount of force on contact that matters.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,354
Post Likes
569
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
It is an anomally but yes it is legal (dangerous play considerations obviously can change that statement) However, I see no reason to allow you to hand off a player to the face as a ball carrier but if a "defender" used exactly the same action and force he'd not only be facing a PK but a possible card as well.

Plain daft.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
10,780
Post Likes
1,198
Its just another example of where modern considerations and law changes now create anomalies with accepted and standard practices that have been around for well over a century. The same could be said of ball carriers dropping a shoulder into contact to brace and protect the ball etc which subsequently come into contact with a defender's head with force.
Im not saying either situation (ie the accepted practice or the modern laws and interpretations ) is correct or wrong... just that far more thought is needed when implementing new requirements as to how this actually pans out in historical practise
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
8,889
Post Likes
982
Under 18 over here.

@SimonSmith is this AU wide and still current (going by flag colour on posting, so apologies if you are not referencing AU or it's a state thing)?

I ref Juniors in Victoria, U12 pathways law rules it out clearly, but I'd love a clear reference for older juniors if there is one?
[/QUOTE]
Someone else quoted the USA R guidelines.
 
Top