Hartley red card - Saints v Leinster

winchesterref


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Screen Shot 2016-12-09 at 21.42.59.jpg

A still shot from the moment of impact, and a few frames before (just for a player height comparison)

Screen Shot 2016-12-09 at 21.44.39.jpg
 

Pegleg

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Can't possibly say from those images.
 

richie


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Clear red. No mitigation. In fairness he has formed.
Saints were clearly outplayed. Great away win in the best competition in Europe:hap::hap:
 

crossref


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I love the way Garces says : who is 16?
He must have known who it was..
 

Pegleg

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The video shows a clear red. The "real " DH returns?
 
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winchesterref


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I really dislike this outcome driven decision making, it takes away common sense approaches.

Defenders have to anticipate
a) jumping (Thompstone)
b) ducking (Luamanu)
c) team mate successfully tackling (Hartley)
d) flying (Bigger/Russell)

Attacking players have to
a) take care that defenders are not in a crap tackle position, and
b) if they are, carry the ball in 2 hands and run a bit slower

No there should not have been a swinging arm, but had it connected mid back would JG have given it a second glance? Doubt it very much. That it connected to the head was solely because Wood completed his tackle half a second too early. The replays were all slow mo which make it look bad, real time I didn't even notice, it was that fast.

Rugby absolutely doesn't need serious and deliberate foul play, but the onus cannot be 100% on outcome, because so many incidents are not dependent on just singular illegal actions, rather a series of unfortunate events that happen so quickly in a sequence such that someone can't react quick enough and someone else gets hurt.
 

Pegleg

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Do you realy think he aimed a swinging arm at the player's back?
 

winchesterref


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Do you realy think he aimed a swinging arm at the player's back?

Yes. There are 3 or 4 frames between those still shots. What reaction time is that? Under half a second. He is very, very clearly not aiming at the head, and that he connects with the head is because SOB is practically lying down
 

Camquin

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If you are going high do not swing the arm.
It did not help that there had been two earlier Northampton high tackles and Garces had warned Wood.
I might have given Pisi a Red as if was the fourth high tackle - but on its own it was only yellow.
 

Pegleg

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Not interested in the still shots. They tell us nothing. Simple Question: Why is he swinging an arm? Kidneys / head / neck who knows. Plenty to damage. Red card good for me.
 

winchesterref


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Not interested in the still shots. They tell us nothing. Simple Question: Why is he swinging an arm? Kidneys / head / neck who knows. Plenty to damage. Red card good for me.

Incorrect. They tell us a player's position at a given time. When used in conjunction with a full speed video they will tell us exactly how long a player had to react between point A and point B.

I agree there should not be a swinging arm, and I'm not sure where your kidneys are Pegleg, but mine are certainly not in my mid back.
 

menace


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I teach my kids to tackle at the hips. That way very little chance to take off a head and reduce risk of getting yourself penalised for a.high tackle.
If you want to tackle at the ribs/shoulder to wrap up the ball then you increase the risk of connection with the neck/head. Its not as if thats a new concept. Hartley took the risk and lost. Dont want to lose then reduce the risk? Simple really.
 

winchesterref


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I teach my kids to tackle at the hips. That way very little chance to take off a head and reduce risk of getting yourself penalised for a.high tackle.
If you want to tackle at the ribs/shoulder to wrap up the ball then you increase the risk of connection with the neck/head. Its not as if thats a new concept. Hartley took the risk and lost. Dont want to lose then reduce the risk? Simple really.

Yes I get it, as with the whole safety aspect WR want to reduce rugby to tagging alone. Rugby incidents are no more, and every action has a fault attached to it.
 

Pegleg

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Incorrect. They tell us a player's position at a given time. When used in conjunction with a full speed video they will tell us exactly how long a player had to react between point A and point B.

I agree there should not be a swinging arm, and I'm not sure where your kidneys are Pegleg, but mine are certainly not in my mid back.

The point about the kindneys is that there is a big area that could be injured by a careless swinging arm depending on what happens to the other player.

The reaction time is pretty irrelevant. here. The offender choses to commit a reckless act of foul play. Once his arm is swinging he's not going to change that action. Very different to whether or not a player could pull out of a tackle. The foul play is initiated as soon as he swings his arm.
 

didds

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*shrug* this is the ultimate end of outcome driven sanctions.

I swing a punch

- misses, maybe a PK
- just clips a shoulder - maybe a YC
- connects with head - RC.


All the time the sanction is not determined by the action but the outcome we will always get this arguments and anomalies.



didds
 

Pegleg

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"You can't strike to the head. We've seen enough of them over the last few weeks and I think it was a red card," said Northampton director of rugby Jim Mallinder.
 

crossref


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*shrug* this is the ultimate end of outcome driven sanctions.

I swing a punch

- misses, maybe a PK
- just clips a shoulder - maybe a YC
- connects with head - RC.


All the time the sanction is not determined by the action but the outcome we will always get this arguments and anomalies.



didds

Right now we have a specific problem with collisions in the air, the but in general terms sanctions have always been a mixture of outcome and intent, and realistically, how could it be otherwise.
 

Ian_Cook


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Yes. There are 3 or 4 frames between those still shots. What reaction time is that? Under half a second. He is very, very clearly not aiming at the head, and that he connects with the head is because SOB is practically lying down

Between 1/8th and 1/10th of a second.
 
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