Hartley - will he get us out of a jam?

Stuartg


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The appointment of Hartley as England captain is an utter disgrace and a slap across the face to all of us who contribute to community rugby up and down this land. In my case I referee about 50 matches a year and visit many clubs. Displayed in these clubs is an RFU poster promoting one of the Core Values of the game, namely Respect. That's Respect for the environment, respect for your team mates, respect for the opposition and finally respect for the officials. I'm an Englishman but for the first time ever would like to see England thrashed in the coming 6N.
 

Pegleg

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What a refreshng post. Well said Stuartg.
 

crossref


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yes, yes, I hear what you are saying -- but isn't that the Lancaster era that we just left behind, where character and behaviour are valued over winning? And we never won the 6N, lost almost every game we played against southern hemisphere teams, and failed to get out of our RWC pool. And, yes, the whole time with exemplary character and behaviour all

character is important -- but so is the possibility of redemption and DH has been offered a new start. Hopefully he'll seize it - I don't suppose EJ will give him a second chance.

meanwhile I'd like to see us winning the 6N and with both Wales and Ireland at home this year it seems we have a good opportunity
 

Pegleg

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This has been done to death.

How many second chances does Hartley deserve? He's shows no sign of reform and needs to be cut adrift. Yes sport is about winning. BUT (and it is a big BUT). Not winning at all costs. That's the difference between your view (on the Hartley issue) crossref and some others.

You play to win within the ethos of the game. Personally I'd rather lose playing the game, than win by cheating and thuggery. I guess it comes down the the ethical code you live your life by.
 

crossref


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I think Hartley has lost games because of cheating and thuggery, rather than won them !

And I don't suppose EJ is picking him because he wants more gouging and biting, I imagine he's picked him on the condition that it never happens again.
 

timmad

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One good aspect of our game is that England's opponents will not take advantage of Hartley's temperament early on in matches by trying to provoke him into a rash action.
 
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Pegleg

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I think Hartley has lost games because of cheating and thuggery, rather than won them !

And I don't suppose EJ is picking him because he wants more gouging and biting, I imagine he's picked him on the condition that it never happens again.

You bemoan the era when "...but isn't that the Lancaster era that we just left behind, where character and behaviour are valued over winning?" That suggests you value and anticipate an era where winning is valued more than charater and behaviour.

If so, we have different values.
 
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crossref


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not exactly. I got the impression that SL started off his selection process by weeding out the players he didn't see as totally sound, and then making the best team he could from the rest of them,.


a better starting point for a coach is perhaps to work out what's the best team you could have, and then work with the players to coach their attitude character and behaviour.


every successful team I've ever been involved in has contained one or two aggressive dicks who - frankly- no one particularly liked and could be a liability - but also the team had someone - captain, coach or teacher, who was able to work with the material they had, and could coach the disparate characters to create a team that trusted eachother on the pitch and worked together to play good rugby. That's a great coach. I am hoping EJ will be able to pull this off.
 

Pegleg

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No coach has managed it yet with Hartley. I don't see it happening anytime soon.
 

crossref


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No coach has managed it yet with Hartley. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

which is a completely different point, with which I have a lot more sympathy.

if you are railing against the principle of selecting a sinner, then I am arguing for the chance of redemption.


if you are offering the opinion that - regardless of principle - its a silly idea because it just won't work, and DH will get lots of cards, then you may very well be right. I guess we'll see. But if DH can change, this is probably his best chance. He's a new father, that changes people, EJ is a new coach. He has a chance I'd say, but not a very long one. SL was very loyal, he persevered with Robshaw through thivk and thin, I am not sure EJ is like that, the 6N could be make or break.
 

Pegleg

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The OP made the point that Hartley is an unredeemed thug who, therefore, has no place as the captain of the England side. I agree with him. We are not talking a second chance here. Hartley is already up to around 50 or so chances. So your point about a second chance has well and truly been blown out of the water.

I made the point "How many second chances does Hartley deserve? He's shows no sign of reform and needs to be cut adrift."

S0 it is clear that I am referring to his continued behaviour and lack of any signs of reform.
 
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Taff


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You're assuming gents that the captaincy won't change Hartley.

You may find that the added responsibility changes him for the better. I think the Army does something similar; ie if you're behaving like a dick, they may try giving him some responsibility. I assume it works, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Give it a crack for a few games - it's the 6 Nations, not the World Cup. My point is, if you're going to experiment, now's the time to do it.
 

crossref


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one thing that does worry me is his position, in the front row. It's very much the trend nowadays to sub your front row players off the field with twenty minutes to go ... and those last 20 minutes are when things happen, and when you most need a captain. DH is going to have to last eighty minutes.
 

Pegleg

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You're assuming gents that the captaincy won't change Hartley.

You may find that the added responsibility changes him for the better. I think the Army does something similar; ie if you're behaving like a dick, they may try giving him some responsibility. I assume it works, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Give it a crack for a few games - it's the 6 Nations, not the World Cup. My point is, if you're going to experiment, now's the time to do it.

Has he not captained at club level already? No sign of him reforming though.

- - - Updated - - -

one thing that does worry me is his position, in the front row. It's very much the trend nowadays to sub your front row players off the field with twenty minutes to go ... and those last 20 minutes are when things happen, and when you most need a captain. DH is going to have to last eighty minutes.

His behaviour and lack of reform is not a worry. However, the probability of him being subbed does? OK!
 

crossref


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of course his behaviour is a worry! I am hoping it will improve.

But in the vast majority of games he doesn't get carded, whereas front-row players get subbed almost every game.
 

didds

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Its really very simple.

He will be captain untiol he receives a ban. then he can;t play and somebody else will be captain, even on a match by match basis.

If he doesn't get a ban, then he is changed etc etc etc.

End of.


If anyone was to query you/me/us in our status within the game (!!!!??!!!) about core values etc its a simple task fo directing them to ask Ej as it was he that made the decision not you/me/us.

didds
 

Pegleg

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Well pardom people for having an opinion. Of course it is Jones' call. I see a few England supporters concerned about their team. I also see many supporters of other countries (of other forums etc) rubbing their hands with glee and the appointment of the thug. I question the message his appointment sends to youngsters. But hey not my problem.
 

crossref


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I think that's more the RFU's role than EJ.

the RFU dictate who is eligible to play for England. At the moment the RFU rule out overseas based players.
No doubt they could also rule out players who have been convicted of serious offences [from now on, probably, to avoid retrospective punishing] and/or they could impose longer bans.


I think EJ should leave the RFU to worry about all the conflicting priorities invovled in managing the long term health of the game in England... His job is more single minded : take the players (and other resources) he has been given and try and win the 6N.
 
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