Henshaw on May

[timmad]

England v Ireland 65 mins. Jonny May makes a break down the right wing. As he approached the 22 he kicks ahead and then is clattered by Henshaw. Peyper sees nothing wrong.
Was it obstruction by Henshaw or was he in the process of making a tackle as May kicked?
Did Henshaw use his arms in the tackle - 'wrap' ?
Should Peyper have consulted the TMO?
Should the TMO have intervened to advise Peyper?
Should the AR have intervened?

Thoughts?

 

[crossref]

it looked to me like a no arms tackle, slightly late.

because it was borderline late they seemed to ignore the no arms bit

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Borderline late but clearly no arms tackle, for me should have been a penalty. Don't think it was a clear scoring opportunity

 

[Gracie]

No arms tackle and late - and yes he should have consulted the TMO - I'm surprised the TMO didnlt intervene as overall he seemed pretty active

 

[Zebra1922]

No arms, marginally late, but replays to assess must be real-time as slow-mo always makes it look worse. Justice probably done as May knocked on before this.

 

[Decorily]

I could easily accept a YC!
No attempt to grasp ( wrap )!

One of a number of very poor decisions IMHO!

 

[Wedgie]

Should Peyper have consulted the TMO?
Should the TMO have intervened to advise Peyper?
Should the AR have intervened?

Thoughts?

Yes to all three...
... to penalise May for being offside at the ruck when he stole the ball...

 

[Decorily]

And in relation to the question asked?

 

[Jolly Roger]

Agree that Henshaw’s challenge was late. In slow motion it is clear that he did not adjust to make the challenge until May had kicked. TMO should have been consulted and possible YC.
That said I thought that Owen Farrell should have received a YC for holding on and Curry should also have been YC for neck roll immediately prior to Ireland try.
I don’t think the scrum was refereed well. Both England loose heads were stepping out, driving in and pulling down throughout.

 

[Rich_NL]

Pretty sure May was offside at the ruck, I don't think he knocked on though. The Henshaw tackle was on the late side, on a break, and C&O no arms.

The breakdowns were an absolute state for both teams, throughout, especially inside the 5m. In from the side, human torpedo-style no-arms entries, hands all over the ball. Poorly managed and dangerous.

 

[timmad]

Yes to all three...
... to penalise May for being offside at the ruck when he stole the ball...

Just revisited the highlights and I'm not sure May was offside. But you have raised the question of how far back TMO reviews should go. If (s)he was asked to review the 'tackle' should (s)he be able, independently, to go back further? And, if so, should there be a time / phase limit?

 

[Rich_NL]

I would think the foul play would overrule offside.

 

[didds]

I would think the foul play would overrule offside.

This. If you collect the ball when offside and I then punch you and kick you, it would be somewhat bizarre for me not to concede a pk (cards or not!)

 

[belhysys]

Didds - agree but serious question when do you draw the line.

If Blue is offside, and then tackled with no arm (american football tackle in the legs ie illegal but "not dangerous" ) do you turn the penalty ? I would say no.
If Blue is offside, and then tackled with no arm (like a shoulder charge with force ie YC) do you turn the penalty ? I would say yes.

So in the case at hand, if both offisde and no arm tackle were seen, I would expect to go back to first penalty.

 

[ACUSmember]

...american football tackle in the legs...

Perhaps Peyper took inspiration from the NFL in another way and decided that after a possible offside by white and a no arms tackle by green the two penalties offset, so allowed play to carry on.

I confess as a non-ref it looked like a cast-iron penalty to me, so delighted to find actual refs agree.

I can accept the ref missing it - sometimes, you just don't see things - but how the video ref didn't think it worthy of a look I have no idea.

 

[Decorily]

If Blue is offside, and then tackled with no arm (american football tackle in the legs ie illegal but "not dangerous" ) do you turn the penalty ? I would say no.

If you are saying a no arms tackle on the legs is not dangerous then your 'radar' is seriously off!!

This has been specifically targeted over the last couple of years in IRFUland with a recommendation of Red card!

 

[belhysys]

I have never seen a red card for a no arm tackle in the legs (as you see often during pick and go) and I am not aware of such recommendation by the RFU and sorry if I offended you by my previous post... anyway my question is the same, just replace by a penalty you are happy is not dangerous.

 

[belladonna]

I'm no England fan but I felt May was completely robbed. He'd neatly kicked it through and there was no way the last defender was going to catch him - if it weren't for the late (no-arms) tackle he would have been in like sin. So a YC/PT for me any day of the week - but then I'm not a ref so what do I know

 

[irishref]

2 glaring errors in 1 phase.

May is at the side of a ruck and dives on top of the ball as Cooney is assessing what to do with it. PK Green 100 times out of 100.

After the kick chase, Henshaw is slightly late but 100% with a no-arms tackle. PK white 100 times out of 100.

In my humble one, justice has actually prevailed in this case which makes the ref look very poor indeed.

 

[didds]

2 glaring errors in 1 phase.

May is at the side of a ruck and dives on top of the ball as Cooney is assessing what to do with it. PK Green 100 times out of 100..

law reference?

If it's that thing about not diving on a ball as it exits a ruck Ive never seen that pinged in 45 years.

As it is May doesn't dive on the ball. Cooney extracts it and May attacks the ball in Cooney's hands, which goes down out of Cooney's hands onto the ground. May falls onto the ground as part of his efforts from where he claims the ball and sets off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRBLS_vTBug&feature=youtu.be&t=302

It's unclear whether May was offside though I suspect so - but the referee and TMO/To4 didnt even consider that so presumably "not". It's possibly down to that "hindmost foot" thing, and whether the prone england player with dangling feet consitiutes the hindmost foot or the Irish player next towards the Irish side or somebody else entirely.

I''m not sure it was a probable try either so no PT for me had the no arms tackle been pinged.

It's a marginal timing thing arguably for the late tackle, but the no arms thing is on dodgy ground. FWIW I have seen PKs given at this level for chop tackles with no arms, though I couldn't point to any spefiic incidents. The game is setting a poor precedent if it will "permit" the sort of block/tackle such as Henshaw ended up with against May here I might suggest. What I would ask though if May hadnt have kicked and instead kept ball in hand would we expect Henshaw's no arms block thiing to have been permitted?


England were not really firing that well Sunday but inh the end won very easily nonetheless against a team that hardly seemed to trun up. Sexton was way off the pace form the first minute - bit like Farrell against France frankly. Conot Murray had a nightmare.

Overall I thought at the time the ref had a decent game but Ive seen a lot subsequently (here mainly) that inretrospect he won't have been happy about it



didds