High penalty count at the tackle

Agustin


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At my game on Saturday, I had a high penalty count at the tackle. The count was roughly evenly split between the two teams, but one team (Green) was penalised more when they were the ball carrier (e.g. not releasing the ball) and the other (Black) when they were not (e.g. not releasing the tackled player).

My penalty count otherwise was quite low. The captains were positive and cooperative.

I had highlighted wanting a clean tackle area in my pre-match brief. I reminded both captains after two or three penalties, and once more later in the game. I considered using cards for repeat infringement but somehow it did not seem to fit the mood of the game: the game was flowing fast, both teams were trying to make positive plays, and both captains and coaches could be heard to remind their players to behave better at the tackles (e.g., "boys, you have to stop getting penalised! It's killing us!"). This last bit told me that the players were trying to behave better but lacked the skill or awareness of the situation to move quickly enough at the tackle.

My options, as I see them, were:

1. Do as I did (i.e., have a high penalty count and be happy with the fact that the game overall was good, fast, and positive)
2. Issue cards to make my statement more loudly
3. Be less strict in the tackle (i.e., match my requirement for speed to the ability of the players)
4. Talk to captains more

I didn't like #2 for the reasons stated above.

I didn't like #3 because my strictness seemed to positively impact the game overall.

I did a bit of #4, but perhaps I could have done more.

What would you have done?
 

Enrique


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Option 1. The high count would very probably fell to "normal" numbers once the players grasp the idea that tacklers and assisters must release the tackled player and/or the ball immediately. I don't know how much of option 4 did you use, but it helps.
 

Davet

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Is it possible that captains and coaches comments successfully dissuaded you from a YC?

Is it possible that a card would have driven the point home and prevented more penalties?
 

Dixie


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I find cards to be counter-intuitive. I don't like issuing cards, but with a very few exceptions the games where I act like a tough bustard on the card front are better than the ones where I come down on the lenient side of the fence.
 

ex-lucy


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i have tried 1 and 2 .. and 4.
i believe 1 is the correct option.
i guess it depends on the relative skills of the players ...
 

OB..


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I'm with Davet and Dixie.

Your description says that you had significantly fewer penalties when Black was the ball carrier. Did either team benefit from this? Were the same players infringing? How high is "high"?
 

Iron_Lung


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If your experience is anything like the start of the most recent southern hemisphere season, you'll experience high penalty counts in what is an otherwise positive and flowing game for the first few weeks until players get used to the interpretations. It's not necessarily a bad thing but it does require you to be a bit more circumspect in your use of cards to ensure that you are giving them for negative play rather than players doing their best, who just haven't adapted as yet...

It's not big deal overall and the coaches should make the adjustment as well, but the first half of the season is a case of finding a good balance and making sure you go into the game with the idea that you will reward positive play as much as possible...
 

Darren Evans


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I had similar issues in my last game in the Premiership in Wales.....It's a "damned if you do, Damned if you Don't" scenario.....I like the way James Jones dealt with it on Friday between the Scarlets and Dragons (Magners) First yellow was issued in the first 15 Mins with a second shortly after...His stament made loud and clear and the tackle area cleared up. Howvever, lower divisions may result in a 7-a-side competition using this tactic.
I'm a firm believer of "Man Management" during the game - Tackle area transgressors tend to be back row. Have a chat at the back of the line out or during dead time....Make them aware that you are looking at the tackle area.
 

Simon Thomas


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We have had high penalty counts at L5 & 6 in England as playes and referees get used to the new IRB directives.

What is high ? How much preventative calling of colour & number were you using ? Were you sequencing the phases ?

You need to have effective management and allowing a high penalty count is not the solution. Far better is if after the warning they offend again, YC.

By allowing offences of tackler not releasing, you are depriving the non-offending team of reward for their skills & fast ball and reduce theirattacking options.
Allowing a tackled player to hold on, is penalising good unit skills and speed to breakdown and earned turnover ball.

Once you sallow it happen and just penalise, you have changed the whole dynamic of the match. You must be consistent, both just for the match but with your refereeing colleagues.

I had just this on Saturday with the L5 Group Referee I assessed. Blue wanted to slow it down, making tackle & ruck messy, etc - which in Q1 they did with a high penalty count. Then a lightbulb went on in Q2 in his head and my referee issued a team warning to blue. Then first YC. After half time same happened and second YC - that was it. Penalty count dropped to almost nothing, and Black suddenly had quick recycling, space to attack and scored three tries.
 

kielikili


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My experience has been similar to that described here in that I have told players prior to k.o. that I wanted a tidy tackle, they did not comply and I subsequently had a high number of penalties (despite nearly screaming myself hoarse at the offenders). I followed the cards route and it paid off as the second half produced some great rugby.
I think that ultimately I got the result that I wanted and the players benefitted from being able to really play some rugby and not just wallow around on the floor at messy tackles.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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It took me a half a game on Saturday to get the tackle area as I would wish it. Lots of penalties 20-25 (altogether), which is too many I think, and 1 YC. Quite a few of the penalties were for not releasing the tackled player and it was the "tackler" who isn't (ie the bloke still on his feet) who was getting done most for this (both sides) - I'm not sure if I'm the first to impose it on either team this season (I hope not).

Anyway by half time we were all getting to grips with it and it finished 31-16.

Got my name in a proper "programme" (well A4 sheet folded in half with teams and me in middle and a few butcher ads round the edge) as well. It was left in my changing room with the home team card when I arrived - good day out
 

Agustin


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Thanks, all, for the responses so far. Just the process of writing things down has been helpful, and the responses, even more so.

During the game, I obviously leaned towards the thinking that, well, it's early on in the season; these guys will adapt eventually. And maybe they will, but they didn't during this game.

Is it possible that captains and coaches comments successfully dissuaded you from a YC?

Yes. Is this a bad thing, in this case? The intention of the YC is to get the point across that the players need to stop infringing. I think this message had been received.

Is it possible that a card would have driven the point home and prevented more penalties?

Yes. This is my dilemma. It's also possible that players would not have been able to react (due to lack of skill) and I'd be stuck issuing YC after YC.

I may try the YC approach the next time this comes up, just to see what happens.

Your description says that you had significantly fewer penalties when Black was the ball carrier. Did either team benefit from this?

I didn't notice it during the game but it stands to reason that Green would benefit because the penalties disrupted Black's attack. However, the penalties were being commited by both teams.

Were the same players infringing? How high is "high"?

It was not the same players infringing. I think that if it had been, I'd have been quicker to reach for the card.

The penalty count at the tackle was 10-9. Green: 4 in the first half / 6 in the second half. Black: 6/3.

This may be my biggest hint. The Black captain asked more questions at half time about exactly what I was looking for from the "tackle assist". The Green captain listened to me politely but did not ask questions.

How much preventative calling of colour & number were you using ? Were you sequencing the phases ?

I used very little preventive calling of colour and number. This would be a fifth option. I tend not to use preventive calling in tackle situations because I feel that if I've said "Green 6, release!" he's already slowed down the play.

I'm not sure what it means to sequence the phases.
 

crossref


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...... hmm.... I suspect I am not giving enough PKs.
 

Stuartg


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I also had a game on Saturday (school 1st XV) where I gave a lot of penalties for the tackled player holding on. Both sides were not committing players to the breakdown which meant that the jackler arrived or tackler had the time to get to his feet and get his hands legitimately on the ball. I only pinged one occasion when the tackler did not release and roll away.

In retrospect I should have called the captains together and threatened the YC you live and learn. I was tired of shouting 'release' by the end.

On Sunday I did an U17 club game in which I had very few problems at the breakdown - both sides committed more to the breakdown and anyone attempting to get their hands on the ball was driven off.
 

JonnoNeath


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From my very limited experience (I have only refereed under the current law interpretation) the youth teams seem to release the player on the floor no problem. What I find the biggest problem is incoming players just diving straight to the floor in and around the tackle area. That is what I seem to be giving most penalties for. I would estimate I gave about 20 penalties last week, a lot of which were for going to ground.
 

crossref


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How's that?

reading this I am coming to the conclusion that if I gave more PKs in the breakdown in the first 10 mins, the game would run a lot more smoothly from then on

... it is food for thought.
 

Dixie


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reading this I am coming to the conclusion that if I gave more PKs in the breakdown in the first 10 mins, the game would run a lot more smoothly from then on

... it is food for thought.
That's the counter-intuitive nature of cards. You'd think that issuing them buqqers up a game. In fact, it cleans it up and improves it. Takes years of empirical evidence for a doubter to come around though - and even then (if my experience is common) he has to steel himself every season to do the needful.
 

ex-lucy


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dixie:
That's the counter-intuitive nature of cards. You'd think that issuing them buqqers up a game. In fact, it cleans it up and improves it. Takes years of empirical evidence for a doubter to come around though - and even then (if my experience is common) he has to steel himself every season to do the needful.

i am being told i give too many YCs .... the most in the Society by far ... and yet .. watching those refs i should use as an example i would say that they dont ref the breakdowns .. it's nearly always a mess and arbitrary as to what goes on/ is decided.
Then the ref comes off the pitch .... "how about that, eh? 10 pks all game ... wow!"
yes .. but .. if i had have been playing in that match, a flanker may well have had a broken finger or two or nose for cheating.. the ref not having refereed so i would have to take the law into my own hands.... out of frustration..

talk to the coaches ... they want us to referee the breakdowns ... they dont want cheats to prosper ... i would say that a few years ago .. the low penalty count was the objective ..now our objectives should be safety and adherence to the laws to make it a cleaner, clearer game for attacking teams - no matter the pks and ycs.
 

Davet

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Originally Posted by Davet
Is it possible that captains and coaches comments successfully dissuaded you from a YC?
Yes. Is this a bad thing, in this case? The intention of the YC is to get the point across that the players need to stop infringing. I think this message had been received.

They may have understood the message, but they successfully avoided having to act on it.

Words are meaningless, I would not be interested in repeated promises and vows to try harder - either they act or they don't. If they don't act then you have to.
 
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