How about this one ?

[crossref]

@crossref The controversial issue is that you say there are two different definitions of 'forward' in the laws... I can find one entry in the definitions, still waiting for someone to show me the second in which "the word 'forward' means forward relative to the player".

See the red forward in #9

Or Rich post #16 to explain

 

[Stu10]

See the red forward in #9

Or Rich post #16 to explain

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

(^ This was in post 9)

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

I'm still struggling to see which definition says "forward relative to the player"

 

[crossref]

But that's the one

An ordinary pass at speed the arms go forward relative to the ground, but it's not a throw forward because they go backwards relative to the player

Why is this so hard that understand?
Rich explains it

 

[BikingBud]

 

[Stu10]

But that's the one

An ordinary pass at speed the arms go forward relative to the ground, but it's not a throw forward because they go backwards relative to the player

Why is this so hard that understand?
Rich explains it

That concept is easy to understand, but it's not what the laws or definitions say. The definition says "if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward" and defines forward as "towards the opposition’s dead-ball line."

And, again, "backwards relative to the player" does not work if the player is running towards their own DBL, there it can't be a robust and correct definition!

"Relative to the player" is not a phrase used anywhere in the laws or definitions, no matter how many times you say it.

An ordinary pass at speed the arms go forward relative to the ground, but it's not a throw forward because they go backwards relative to the player

This is not necessarily correct, because it depends on the direction of travel, the running speed of the player, angle of pass and speed of arm movement... Needless to say, it is ridiculous too think WR expects a referee to accurately process all these parameter at once, or wrote the law/definition with all these factors within consideration.

Maybe we should admit that in reality, and quite reasonably, the law makers did not consider net velocity of the arms (ie considering both forward travel of the player and the movement of the hands simultaneously) and wrote the current definition to be read on face value... Simply, do the arms move forward, towards the opposition's DBL (per the definition of forward), during the pass?

 

[crossref]

Well, I started these threads to demonstrate that the knock on and throw forward Laws are not clearly written, and embrace quite a lot of ambiguity... I would say that I have shown that

 

[Stu10]

I don't think you have... You've created your own version of definitions (I suppose that could be the ambiguity) and created different ways of (partly) explaining how to define a forward pass or knock on, however, I think it's fairly clear that we all know and recognise a knock-on and forward pass.

 

[crossref]

I was meaning the very split opinions on my different scenarios

 

[crossref]

."

!

"Relative to the player" is not a phrase used anywhere in the laws or definitions, no matter how many times you say it.

My point is the exact opposite : the Laws use forward sometimes to mean relative to ground, sometimes to mean realtive to player, and should say so more explicitly