How straight is not straight (and do you play advantage)

Greg Collins


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At our last Society training session I was introduced to the concept of the "credible put-in" at the scrum which is apparently now a part of the protocol in the Guinness Premiership. Seems a good idea and I've used that very phrase in my SH briefing and it seems to work

Elsewhere in this forum I've seen debate about line out throw in, on Saturday (Level 12 league game) I set myself the task of setting a reasonable, aka credible, standard for not straight at the line out and as a result was thanked by both teams for being a) consistent and b) allowing a little latitude unless "the throw was taking the piss" Not sure I got it right though so hear goes.....

a) Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not dead straight but not by much, still more-or-less down the middle i.e. it was a credible throw, blue compete, yellow catch. I play on, correct or no?

b)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not straight but not by much, still more-or-less down the middle, i.e. it was a credible throw, blue compete, yellow compete, blue catch. I play on, correct or no?

c)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is obviously not straight by a half a metre or more, i.e. an incredible throw in, in favour of yellow, blue compete yellow catch, I blow for "not straight" correct or no?

d)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is obviously not straight by a half a metre or more, i.e. an incredible throw in, throw favours yellow, blue compete, yellow compete, blue catch I play advantage correct or no?

e) Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is obviously not straight by a half a metre or more, i.e. an incredible throw in, throw favours blue, blue compete, yellow compete, blue catch, I play advantage correct or no?
 

Emmet Murphy


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All of those situations are correct for me. Yes - advantage is fine for not straight at a lineout and you would play it in the same way as you would any other scrum advantage. When I took my NF1 I was told that put-ins at a scrum had to be straight down the middle line whereas lineout throw-ins could be thrown anywhere between the two sets of inside shoulders and therefore did not need to be as straight to be legal.
 

Greg Collins


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All of those situations are correct for me. Yes - advantage is fine for not straight at a lineout and you would play it in the same way as you would any other scrum advantage. When I took my NF1 I was told that put-ins at a scrum had to be straight down the middle line whereas lineout throw-ins could be thrown anywhere between the two sets of inside shoulders and therefore did not need to be as straight to be legal.

"some part of the ball on my mark please scrum half" is what I was told on my NFC1, and again last night on my ELRA Stage 1.

Why, I wonder, is the required standard apparently higher at scrum than line out? Throwing in to a line out down one side of the gap puts the ball 1 metre away from, and therefore just out of reach of, the opposition. Doesn't this encourage across-the line-transgressions?
 
S

Sinkers

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If you get geometrically fixated then there would be no game.line outs and scrums are mere restarts-to minor infringements .if the metre distance is really set generously then it gets away from not straights and across the line offences.
scrum halves feet are a give away and if they have a tendancy to approch the scrum from the oppositions side!:nono:
 

SimonSmith


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Line outs and scrums are mere restarts-to minor infringements.

restarts, yes.
Fundamental competition areas that can decide games? Yes. Do we need to ensure fair competition? Absolutely.
 
S

Sinkers

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an eternal rekindling of this flame.
What exactly happened before the scrum or the line out?
someone dropped the ball threw it forward or kicked it away...:chin:
if you dropped it or kicked it away do you deserve the ball ?:chin:
Or should the other team who didnt make that mistake or elect to kick the ball away deserve the ball? :rolleyes:
 

OB..


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"some part of the ball on my mark please scrum half" is what I was told on my NFC1, and again last night on my ELRA Stage 1.

Why, I wonder, is the required standard apparently higher at scrum than line out?
It isn't. Consider the angular accuracy required.

At a scrum you throw the ball about 1 metre, and it can be 300mm off dead straight ("Some part of the ball...."). That allows you to be over 15 degrees off.

At a lineout the ball must travel 5 metres, and you have a 1 metre gap ie you can be off by 500mm = about 6 degrees. If throwing to the tail, that is 500mm in 15 meters - a couple of degrees.
 

OB..


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Sinkers - it is like the serve in tennis. Yes it is a contest, but one side has the advantage. However there is no guaranteed win.
 
S

Sinkers

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totally agree but there is more to the game than scrums or lines and refs and scrum halfs and hookers who get tied up in the minutae of the feed of the line and scrum are missing the point of the beautiful game.
 

Dixie


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When I took my NF1 I was told that put-ins at a scrum had to be straight down the middle line whereas lineout throw-ins could be thrown anywhere between the two sets of inside shoulders and therefore did not need to be as straight to be legal.
I still think of that as the Bob Ockenden Approach. It's stood me in good stead these last few seasons.
 

Dixie


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Throwing in to a line out down one side of the gap puts the ball 1 metre away from, and therefore just out of reach of, the opposition. Doesn't this encourage across-the line-transgressions?

Not quite Greg. As OB has pointed out, the ball actually deviates much less from true than the scrum feed, and goes maximum 500cm off centre. The defending side's players can all take a step into the gap as the ball is thrown, so they only have to reach across a maximum 500cm, not 100 as you suggest. But I would think that if the ball deviated the full 500cm, you'd call the not straight. You won't be in the zipper or behind the thrower, so your evaluation of the throw may well depend on the angle of the jumper and his oppo as he took it. Catcher jumps striaght up, doesn't lean across, while oppo does an impression of the tower of Pisa and falls short - peep, not straight, what do you want?
 

Bryan


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Greg, the scenarios you mentioned were clear cut. Some grey areas that require judgement are as follows:

a)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not straight as Yellow jumper catches the ball directly above his head (ball is not in the gap). Blue DO compete yellow catch, but Blue put Jumper up at No.4 whereas Yellow Jumper is at No.2 position.

b)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not straight as Yellow jumper catches the ball directly above his head (ball is not in the gap). Blue DO compete yellow catch, but Blue put Jumper up at No.2 whereas Yellow Jumper is at No.4 position.

Wadda ya reckon?
 

OB..


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Bryan - for me, not straight whether contested or not.

If you allow it, they will continue to throw it there and the opposition will not bother to contest because it is pointless. Why should the opposition be required to guess correctly where the ball is going?
 

Dixie


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Bryan - for me, not straight whether contested or not.

If you allow it, they will continue to throw it there and the opposition will not bother to contest because it is pointless. Why should the opposition be required to guess correctly where the ball is going?

Materiality? If Blue declined to put up a jumper at all, electing instead to attack the yellow jumper as he lands, is the straightness of the throw materially affecting Blue's plan? Arguably, Blue is advantaged by an unstraight throw, as Yellow has no forward momentum as he should have if jumping inwards.

Where Blue jumps at 4 instead of 2, the yellow jumper at 2 is effectively uncontested. Is the unstraight throw in such circumstances material to the outcome of an uncontested lineout? Wouldn't a word with the Yellow thrower achieve your objective of better throws equally well, with better game management?

Where Blue jumps at 2 with the ball thrown crooked to 4, that seems rather more contentious. Blue 2 may have had a better chance if it was closer to him. I'd be more inclined to blow for that than the others Bryan postulated.
 

OB..


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Dixie - I was focusing on subsequent lineouts. It may well not be material in the current one, but I do not want to give players (and spectators!) the idea that crooked throws are acceptable, or they will keep on doing it, and then you get criticised for inconsistency
 

ex-lucy


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then you get criticised for inconsistency

to which i reply ... i am being consistent ... in my application of materiality.

Had the same issue on Sat, both teams understood. They appreciated it. Level 10. I only called 'not straight' if it was being contested. As per numbers, it's only worth blowing if it is material.
As per scrums, i aint gonna call it 'not straight' in uncontested scrums.
 

OB..


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ex-lucy - we disagree. If I were watching your game I would discuss the question with you afterwards, then note the difference of opinion in my report, and leave it to the grading committee to sort out.
 

Greg Collins


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Greg, the scenarios you mentioned were clear cut. Some grey areas that require judgement are as follows:

a)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not straight as Yellow jumper catches the ball directly above his head (ball is not in the gap). Blue DO compete yellow catch, but Blue put Jumper up at No.4 whereas Yellow Jumper is at No.2 position.

b)Yellow throw in a line out. Throw is not straight as Yellow jumper catches the ball directly above his head (ball is not in the gap). Blue DO compete yellow catch, but Blue put Jumper up at No.2 whereas Yellow Jumper is at No.4 position.

Wadda ya reckon?

At my level ping both for not straight. Players expect any misdemeanour to be punished and if I start getting selective problems will arise later in the game.... probably at the next line out.

At your level you'll apply more judgement on materiality and have superior game management skills and might even expect some players to understand both so a) play on, it made no odds b) ping, if it was straight then blue might have got it.
 

didds

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there may be very good tactical reasons for not contesting - sometimes.

Could be the first two defnded lineouts fulfill the tactical requoirement.

BUT... the third defended lineout may well fulfill a different tactical requirement ... (Remember Scotland v England last 6N?)

but by allowing some quite obvious squint throws for the frist two lineouts (uncontested), you now face the possibility of having to permit a 3rd equally squint throw (for consitency's sake)... or pinging the thrower for not straight, and all he is going to think is "that was no less straight than the other two - what a plonker".

You could stop the game at this juncture and have a detailed debate as to your reasoning... but I doubt you would. You will now have naffed off at least one team - whether you think your decisions were right or wrong.

didds
 
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