in touch on the full

[ChrisR]

Are you referring to the OP?
If a player, with one foot in and one foot out (let's call it the "Hokey Pokey" stance), attempts to catch the ball but knocks the ball forward into the FoP before the ball has crossed the plane-of-touch, it is a knock on and a scrum restart.
If he does the same thing but after the ball has crossed the plane-of-touch, the ball is in touch (regardless of where it now lands) put there by the kicker.

I disagree with the part in bold. See previous post, Ball striking player occurs before ball striking ground therefore ball is in touch, no knock-on occurred.

 

[ChrisR]

Why not?

If the player is standing in the field of play and attempts to catch the ball after it has crossed the plane, but knocks forward instead, the ball is not in touch until it hits the ground. It was therefore preceded by a knock-on. The current law gives an option to the non-offending side of scrum or lineout - knock-on into touch.

Agree. Player in the FOP plays the ball then ball not in touch. If it goes forward it's a knock-on. If it goes backwards into the FOP then it's play-on. If it goes backwards into touch then player who attempted catch put it into touch.

 

[Dickie E]

Why not?

Because, by the way the law is worded, once the ball crosses plane of touch there is only one way that it can't be in touch. And that is if a player in FoP catches it.

 

[OB..]

Because, by the way the law is worded, once the ball crosses plane of touch there is only one way that it can't be in touch. And that is if a player in FoP catches it.

If the player knocks the ball forward, that would normally be a knock-on. The ball is not in touch until it lands. If the ball remains past the plane and lands in touch, the knock-on occurred first. Surely you should these days offer a scrum or lineout because the ball was knocked-on into touch?

 

[The Fat]

I disagree with the part in bold. See previous post, Ball striking player occurs before ball striking ground therefore ball is in touch, no knock-on occurred.

So what would you rule in the following scenario?
Blue player kicks from outside his 22. The ball is going to land on the half-way line about 2m inside the field of play.
A red player plants his left foot on the touch line. He plants his right foot about 1m - 1.2m inside the FoP and leaning sideways at full stretch and down low, reaches in-field with his right arm fully extended and just manages to get his hand to the ball before it lands.
1. The ball hits the red player's hand and continues towards red's DBL before hitting the ground. Decision?
2. The ball hits the red player's hand and goes forward (i.e. back towards the blue team's DBL) before hitting the ground. Decision?

And finally,
Are you saying that what the red player did (i.e. plant a foot in touch and at full stretch just get a finger to a kicked ball before it lands in the FoP), is all any player need do to cause an opponents kick to be negated and go back to a point in line with where the kick was made for a line-out to the non-kicker's team?

 

[Dickie E]

If the player knocks the ball forward, that would normally be a knock-on. The ball is not in touch until it lands. If the ball remains past the plane and lands in touch, the knock-on occurred first. Surely you should these days offer a scrum or lineout because the ball was knocked-on into touch?

Let me ask you this:

In the scenario we are discussing, if this player then steps into touch and catches the ball before it lands - who gets the lineout throw?

 

[ChrisR]

So what would you rule in the following scenario?
Blue player kicks from outside his 22. The ball is going to land on the half-way line about 2m inside the field of play.
A red player plants his left foot on the touch line. He plants his right foot about 1m - 1.2m inside the FoP and leaning sideways at full stretch and down low, reaches in-field with his right arm fully extended and just manages to get his hand to the ball before it lands.
1. The ball hits the red player's hand and continues towards red's DBL before hitting the ground. Decision?
2. The ball hits the red player's hand and goes forward (i.e. back towards the blue team's DBL) before hitting the ground. Decision?

And finally,
Are you saying that what the red player did (i.e. plant a foot in touch and at full stretch just get a finger to a kicked ball before it lands in the FoP), is all any player need do to cause an opponents kick to be negated and go back to a point in line with where the kick was made for a line-out to the non-kicker's team?

Yes. The degree of effort needed to accomplish the end result, ie. of ball striking player in touch, has no bearing.

As to going forward? Touch first.

 

[OB..]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal. Such a player may knock the ball into the playing area.[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular][...][/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.[/FONT][/LAWS]

If the ball has not crossed the plane of touch
(i) and is caught by a player in touch, the ball is in touch (and was put there by the previous person to play it, not the catcher),
(ii) and is knocked into the FoP by a player in touch. The ball is not in touch. If the ball is knocked forward, that is a knock-on.

If the ball has crossed the plane of touch
(i) and is caught by a player with both feet in the FoP, the ball is not in touch.
(ii) and is knocked by a player with both feet in the FoP
....(a) and goes forward, that is a knock-on. If the ball lands in touch, the opponents have a choice of scrum or lineout.
....(b) and does not go forward, it is in touch it it then lands in touch, but not otherwise.

That is my summary of that bit of law as it stands at present.

 

[The Fat]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If the ball crosses the touchline or touch-in-goal line, and is caught by a player who has both feet in the playing area, the ball is not in touch or touch-in-goal. Such a player may knock the ball into the playing area.[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular][...][/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.[/FONT][/LAWS]

If the ball has not crossed the plane of touch
(i) and is caught by a player in touch, the ball is in touch (and was put there by the previous person to play it, not the catcher),
(ii) and is knocked into the FoP by a player in touch. The ball is not in touch. If the ball is knocked forward, that is a knock-on.

If the ball has crossed the plane of touch
(i) and is caught by a player with both feet in the FoP, the ball is not in touch.
(ii) and is knocked by a player with both feet in the FoP
....(a) and goes forward, that is a knock-on. If the ball lands in touch, the opponents have a choice of scrum or lineout.
....(b) and does not go forward, it is in touch if it then lands in touch (put there by the player who knocked it so LO to the kicker's team), but not otherwise.

That is my summary of that bit of law as it stands at present.

I agree on all counts but would add the bit I have put in red to the last one (ii)(b)

 

[OB..]

The Fat - agreed.