Ire v Italy - Am I miscounting

BikingBud


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Why are Italy down to 13 players?

Where is my logic at odds with everything that is being said in the game and by the pundits?

Law 3 - Team

Uncontested Scrums:

20. If a front-row player is sent off, (yes, now 14 players ) and the team cannot continue with contested scrums with players already on the field (yes, hooker replaced due to injury), then the team nominates another player to leave the playing area (yes, now 13 players) to enable an available front-row player to come on (yes, now back to 14 players). The nominated player may act as a replacement.

It doesn't say anything about the penalty of dropping another player:unsure:
 

Pedro

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It’s in the application guidelines, rather than the law itself. If you’re using the app - hit the “more” ellipsis and then guidelines - there’s a handy table there to tell you what should happen. Ref has it spot on (although probably not what the law was intended for).
 
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Mipper


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Why are Italy down to 13 players?

Where is my logic at odds with everything that is being said in the game and by the pundits?



It doesn't say anything about the penalty of dropping another player:unsure:
Yeah, I am kind of with you here.

it feels like the right decision, but I too, don’t see how the laws define it.
 

Mipper


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It’s in the application guidelines, rather than the law itself. If you’re using the app - hit the “more” ellipsis and then guidelines - there’s a handy table there to tell you what should happen. Red has it spot in (although probably not what the law was intended for).
Gosh, I have to say that I was not aware of that table. Interesting.

on a slightly different tangent, it does amaze me that a prop cannot scrummage at hooker, at this top level.
(I am pretty sure that most levels we officiate, any front rower would manage any of the three positions)
 

Pedro

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I think at this level, each position is so specialised that it’s less likely that a prop can substitute for a hooker.
Thinking player safety- having a few matches as a Hooker at under 16s probably doesn’t suggest you can keep yourself safe at international level.
 

BikingBud


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We have laws and then we have "application guidelines" that modify those laws! Why am I surprised but not surprised?

I can cope with something that provides additional guidance but this cannot be law (shall) but could be advice (may or should) adding additional criteria that change the law as written is not efficient or effective.
 

BikingBud


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It’s in the application guidelines, rather than the law itself. If you’re using the app - hit the “more” ellipsis and then guidelines - there’s a handy table there to tell you what should happen. Red has it spot in (although probably not what the law was intended for).
What should happen but that implies the referee has some level of discretion. We did not see any discretion being applied or even any discussion about discretion.
 

Taff


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I was aware that if a scrum went uncontested in certain leagues that the team responsible had to drop a player. I think it was brought in to stop some teams with weak scrums from taking the mick; but I thought it was a WRU directive and didn't realise it applied at international level as well.
 
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Pedro

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What should happen but that implies the referee has some level of discretion. We did not see any discretion being applied or even any discussion about discretion.
Ok, you’re picking up MY language there, not WRs. Not sure what that gets you, but fair enough ?‍♂️
The application guidelines are there to add detail, and advice on how to apply the laws. while it’s bad luck for Italy, there’s also a lesson there for all players - if your in a position that requires you to be STE, and your the only replacement available , maybe - just don’t tackle high?
 

Pedro

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I was aware that if a scrum went uncontested in certain leagues that the team responsible had to drop a player. I think it was brought in to stop some teams with weak scrums from taking the mick; but I didn't realise it applied at international level.
It was brought in, I believe- partly as a response to Wales and Frances tactics in their 100+ minute match a few years ago (2018/19?).
 

timmad

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I struggled to follow the logic, but them's the laws. Apparently it's designed to stop teams exploiting the uncontested scrum option. A sad indictment of the modern game in that coaches spend time trying to get round the LoTG rather than play within the spirit of the game we love. Ruined the spectacle today, even if Ireland failed to capitalize fully.
 

timmad

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Oh, and I thought the call on the red card was marginal. The Italian player was incompetent rather than having any malicious intent and the Irish ball carrier ducked slightly. Penalty + yellow for me.
 

Flish


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Oh, and I thought the call on the red card was marginal. The Italian player was incompetent rather than having any malicious intent and the Irish ball carrier ducked slightly. Penalty + yellow for me.

Pretty sure intent isn’t a consideration in the flowchart, right outcome
 

Flish


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I think at this level, each position is so specialised that it’s less likely that a prop can substitute for a hooker.
Thinking player safety- having a few matches as a Hooker at under 16s probably doesn’t suggest you can keep yourself safe at international level.
This happened with Wayne Barnes in a Premiership game last season (Wasps I think), team manager said that player ‘X‘ was happy to play Hooker, WB checked with the player and he looked very confused and said no, not a good look, but again, right outcome
 

timmad

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Pretty sure intent isn’t a consideration in the flowchart, right outcome
Sure you're right. And I agree that we need to remove the high tackle from the game. But should The flowchart be so rigid?
 

Flish


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Sure you're right. And I agree that we need to remove the high tackle from the game. But should The flowchart be so rigid?
Someone somewhere gets upset whichever way we go ?‍♂️
 

timmad

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I think at this level, each position is so specialised that it’s less likely that a prop can substitute for a hooker.
Thinking player safety- having a few matches as a Hooker at under 16s probably doesn’t suggest you can keep yourself safe at international level.
These days the hooking skills are restricted to locks / 2nd rows - that's where the ball's put in! #inmy day
 

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Thread seems to be splitting - on the 13 player rule, I vaguely recall the logic was around differentiating between a team that runs out of front row due to foul play (so not their fault) or blood sub (temp replacement for a quick patch up) where the teams stay at 15, due to injuries (plays on with 14), vs due to foul play (down to 13) to impose a punishment on the offending team and not take away the advantage when one team has a dominant scrum.

As for why only a loose head can be a loose head etc - I don’t know the exact reasoning but I’m guessing it has to be partly down to the definition of what exactly is “suitably trained and experienced“ replacement and partly to stop coaches gaming the system to get more flexibility in replacements.

Hopefully someone on the board has an inside track with the top flight on the actual reasons. I’m sure this is going to talked about a lot over the next few days.
 

Mipper


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I think at this level, each position is so specialised that it’s less likely that a prop can substitute for a hooker.
Thinking player safety- having a few matches as a Hooker at under 16s probably doesn’t suggest you can keep yourself safe at international level.
I do understand that it is about safety but I still don’t see why a loose head as an example, couldn’t play hooker. I don’t suggest that the centre (who played hooker at U16) gives it a go, but instead the guy who practices hundreds of scrums right next to the hooker.

my unsubstantiated view is that rather than sticking their LH at hooker, they thought they would be less disadvantaged with non competitive scrums - very clearly not understanding the “applications” of the laws.
 

pedr

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Presumably teams can choose to select more than one suitably trained and experienced replacement hooker, or choose players who are competent at prop and hooker - or encourage players to develop and maintain competence across the front row? That would increase the chances of the primary aim that all scrums are contested throughout a match even where multiple front-row players are unable to continue.
 
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