Ire v Italy - Am I miscounting

Pedro

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I do understand that it is about safety but I still don’t see why a loose head as an example, couldn’t play hooker. I don’t suggest that the centre (who played hooker at U16) gives it a go, but instead the guy who practices hundreds of scrums right next to the hooker.

my unsubstantiated view is that rather than sticking their LH at hooker, they thought they would be less disadvantaged with non competitive scrums - very clearly not understanding the “applications” of the laws.
I think that’s quite disrespectful to the role of a hooker at international level.
 

didds

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I was aware that if a scrum went uncontested in certain leagues that the team responsible had to drop a player. I think it was brought in to stop some teams with weak scrums from taking the mick; but I thought it was a WRU directive and didn't realise it applied at international level as well.
aus did it a few years back, and france not so long ago. ISTR it all appeared circa 2016 ?
 

didds

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Italy meanwhile didnt seem to know what laws and regs they were playing under. I wonder if they'd ha ve been to ready to say they had no other player capable of playing hooker had they understood them? The skipper was clearly shocked when he realised/was told they'd be down to 13 ...
 

Camquin

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I believe at professional level - that is where there are 8 on the bench, and you need to cover all three positions, each player is annotated as to which of the three positions they can play.

There is nothing stopping you having more than one cover for each position. For example, you can name the starting flanker as a hooker.
But all nominated payers must attend the ref's briefing - if they give one. The amount the top refs feel they need to coach the front rows during a match, you wonder.
 

chbg


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This Law Book section requires re-writing. 3.20 enables another FR player, including replaced but not injured, to come on to enable contested scrums to continue.
3.17 is the Law that requires the so-called 'man-off'; it is the departure of the FR player who cannot be replaced that produces the reduced numbers. i.e. in this situation he can only be replaced by another FR player.

In a squad of 23 players or at the discretion of the match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced.
 

Dickie E


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Pretty sure intent isn’t a consideration in the flowchart, right outcome
this is the flow chart. "Intent" is one of the 3 considerations for mitigation:
 

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Mipper


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I think that’s quite disrespectful to the role of a hooker at international level.
Why?

Do not misunderstand my view to suggest that a prop could play hooker just as well - that would be plain daft. My view is that, as a third choice option, in extremis, a prop should be able to maintain competitive scrums.
 

crossref


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Why?

Do not misunderstand my view to suggest that a prop could play hooker just as well - that would be plain daft. My view is that, as a third choice option, in extremis, a prop should be able to maintain competitive scrums.
They have to declare , before the game, what positions they can play in
 

Marc Wakeham


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I do understand that it is about safety but I still don’t see why a loose head as an example, couldn’t play hooker. their LH at hooker, they thought they would be less disadvantaged with non competitive scrums - very clearly not understanding the “applications” of the laws.
Did you ever play either position?
 

Camquin

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I England at level3, the match sheet marks simply front row players. With five on the bench, there must be cover the first two times a front row player needs to be replaced. It is expected, between the two front row players on the bench, the team can cover any two of the front row going off. So props need to be able to play both sides.
 

crossref


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this is the reason they went down to 13 -- it's not in the Laws, it's a (rather bad tempered) clarification to a guideline -- and only applies to games with 23 players

 

belladonna

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So if the first hooker gets sent off and the replacement gets injured they can play with 14. But vice versa and it's 13? Seems a bit crazy (though I can see the logic of wanting to deter abuse.)
 

Jarrod Burton


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I England at level3, the match sheet marks simply front row players. With five on the bench, there must be cover the first two times a front row player needs to be replaced. It is expected, between the two front row players on the bench, the team can cover any two of the front row going off. So props need to be able to play both sides.
I think sometimes teams game not being able to have a FR player play on both sides, especially if they think going one player down will effectively offset a substantially more powerful opposing scrum if their general play defence is strong or in the wet where lots of KO are expected.

I've had it happen to me with a captain wanting to go down to 14 on the field claiming that he had no trained TH left - pity the bloke on the bench was the starting TH two weeks before and I remembered that because he spent some time in the naughty chair in that game and we needed a TH replacement for 10 minutes...
 

Marc Wakeham


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Yes. But not at international level.
It does not show in your understanding sorry if that offends. We have a PRO TH prop at our club who has stepped down to Semi pro level to lear the hooker's trade. We would not dream of saying: "Step straight in.".
 

crossref


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Law 3.17. refers.
3.17 doesn't take them down to 13...

In a squad of 23 players or at the discretion of the match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced.
 

Mipper


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It does not show in your understanding sorry if that offends. We have a PRO TH prop at our club who has stepped down to Semi pro level to lear the hooker's trade. We would not dream of saying: "Step straight in.".
Of course I am not offended as you simply misunderstand me. I am not sure how your club’s experience is relevant though, as my original point was not about changing positions, but simply covering hooker during a game in order to avoid the sanction of a further player loss.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Of course I am not offended as you simply misunderstand me. I am not sure how your club’s experience is relevant though, as my original point was not about changing positions, but simply covering hooker during a game in order to avoid the sanction of a further player loss.
What I am saying and the actions of my club indicate it. A prop is not STE to play hooker at the higher levels. I'm not missunderstanding you either. You are claiming that a prop is STE to play hooker. I'm saying that is nonsense. Some will be others not.
 

Marc Wakeham


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3.17 doesn't take them down to 13...

In a squad of 23 players or at the discretion of the match organiser, a player whose departure has caused the referee to order uncontested scrums cannot be replaced.
It does if you add in the Card. If it is an injury it is down to 14 if there is a Red or Yellow as well that remove a further player, for the duration of the card.
 
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