[6N] Ireland v England

[ChuckieB]

If the players on the ground had moved away from the ball as they were meant to, surely the ball would have been out of any ruck and back in open play?

Came up recently in Chris R's Las Vegas 7's thread and a counter ruck by the US vs SA where the rucking players had cleared themselves and the ref pinged the US player then coming in at the side to play the ball. That thorny issue of when is the ruck over! I don't think Chris R ever got the satisfaction he was hoping for on that one.

"It's over when I say it is. Even if I don't say it!"

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

If McGrath walks through the middle of the ruck on his own who is he bound to?

[LAWS](b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The
bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body
of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

So he is either joining a ruck without binding = PK; or he is offside for not joining the ruck = PK.

Phil, so you would consider the ruck still exists even though there are no players on their feet and in physical contact ?
Right ?

 

[Skids]

Phil, so you would consider the ruck still exists even though there are no players on their feet and in physical contact ?
Right ?

I was about to ask a similar question. Does the answer, when it comes, relate only to elite games or can we take this down to our own levels?

 

[Phil E]

Phil, so you would consider the ruck still exists even though there are no players on their feet and in physical contact ?
Right ?

Yes.

The ruck hasn't ended because the requirements for the ending of a ruck have not been satisfied.

[LAWS]16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal
line.[/LAWS]

The ball hasn't moved, so it can't have left the ruck.

This is in line with a ruling from 2007. Where one team leaves the ruck, it's still a ruck. So it must be the same if the other team leaves, or they all end up on the floor.

[LAWS]Clarification 3 2007

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling3-2007
Union / HP Ref ManagerGRU
Law Reference16
Date 1 October 2007
Request

1. A ruck is formed and the ball is playable for Team A. All players in Team B now leave the ruck and step back. Is there still a ruck or has the ruck ended?
Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball enters in goal i.e. on or over the goal line.

A ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable.

As there has been a ruck formed initially, AND the criteria for a successful or unsuccessful ruck have not been exhibited, then the ruck has not ended.[/LAWS]

 

[Pegleg]

Silly boy!


https://www.balls.ie/rugby/watch-england-fans-unhappy-sexton-haskell-361432

 

[didds]

That's good enough for me Phil.

cheers

Didds

 

[ChuckieB]

The ball hasn't moved even if the players have is quite a helpful rule of thumb! even if the bit about the ball isn't expressly stated. Helps gives reasonable interpretation for Chris R's USA vs SA 7's scenario. The SA player placed the ball which then remained static as the counter ruck wiped the two players out from over him!

 

[Rich_NL]

Thanks, Phil. What's the offside line for the non-ball-carrying team in such a situation?

 

[didds]

the rear foot of then last teammate presumably

If there is no teammate maybe the ball?

didds

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Chris R please straighten this out, before this becomes the status quo. These guys are all goofed up. I can barely take it.

 

[Rich_NL]

the rear foot of then last teammate presumably

If there is no teammate maybe the ball?

In which case you can bind onto the opponent and ruck the 9 off the ball..?

Chris R please straighten this out, before this becomes the status quo. These guys are all goofed up. I can barely take it.

If you'd like to share some relevant law references, it would be appreciated far more than trolling.

 

[crossref]

The ball hasn't moved even if the players have is quite a helpful rule of thumb! even if the bit about the ball isn't expressly stated. Helps gives reasonable interpretation for Chris R's USA vs SA 7's scenario. The SA player placed the ball which then remained static as the counter ruck wiped the two players out from over him!

but that is surely wrong, if a ruck formed by players on their feet moves over and away from the ball, then the ruck must be over.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

In my original case, Ireland v England at 49 mins, if it were not Ben Youngs there, and it was a forward, I suspect that James McGrath would not have been penalised for rucking him. So why is it any different if its the number 9 ?
I am not trying to pick holes, I just want to sell the decision I will make next Saturday afternoon.

My thinking is: Yes, players who are bound into a ruck must not try to play the 9. This is relatively easy to police.
But, once there are no attacking players to protect the 9, then all bets are off and the defenders ( providing they are compliant with entry and are not dangeroulsy treading on players on the ground ) then I would allow them to engage the 9.
Again, it might help to speed up the 9's play OR encourage him to call for enough protection in front of the a ball.

 

[Rawling]

but that is surely wrong, if a ruck formed by players on their feet moves over and away from the ball, then the ruck must be over.

When was the last time any of us saw that on TV, though?

 

[Pinky]

49 mins. Ruck just inside Ireland's half. Players compete but end up all lying on the ground. The 2 players remaining ON their feet are Ben Youngs ( with the ball at his feet ) and Ireland's Jack McGrath. McGrath walk thru the middle of the ruck and goes for Ben Youngs.
Penalty is awarded to England and 3 points taken.
Now, I am aware I am to always protect the 9 at the back of a ruck. i.e. dont allow defenders to attempt to pull the 9 into the ruck.
However, in this specific situation, it looked like McGrath was harshly penalised. I mean , its not his fault the England didnt have enough players protecting the ball.
What do we think here ? I've seen 2 schools of thought. Some refs say the 9 is unplayable and should be protected.
Some say, the 9 is protected so long as the ruck exists and , once it has ended (i.e. no more players on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball) then you can go for the 9.
I would tend to lean towards the latter interpretation rather than the former. It should , at least, encourage the 9 to get on with his pass quickly.
Advice please ?

CTPE, all the rucking players being off their feet does not bring the ruck to an end, so the offside lines and rules about joining remain.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Pinky, Thanks.
I get that the ruck hasn't ended. (Law Clarification 3 2017)
This has been discussed in an old thread http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...playing-the-scrum-half-without-the-ball/page3
So, I can sell the decsion as : The ruck as not ended , you have to wait for the half-back to end the ruck by lifting the ball off the ground or taking it behind hind-most foot.

Cue the defenders asking me "What? So I have to stand there like a lemon, waiting for the 9 to pick up the ball ?".
Me : "Yes."

 

[crossref]

Pinky, Thanks.
I get that the ruck hasn't ended. (Law Clarification 3 2017)
This has been discussed in an old thread http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread...playing-the-scrum-half-without-the-ball/page3
So, I can sell the decsion as : The ruck as not ended , you have to wait for the half-back to end the ruck by lifting the ball off the ground or taking it behind hind-most foot.

Cue the defenders asking me "What? So I have to stand there like a lemon, waiting for the 9 to pick up the ball ?".
Me : "Yes."

but if the ruck hasn't ended, then they can re-join it, binding on to any opponent on his feet (if there is one) and drive through ... so we are back to the orginal scenario

 

[Skids]

but if the ruck hasn't ended, then they can re-join it, binding on to any opponent on his feet (if there is one) and drive through ... so we are back to the orginal scenario

But that isn't the situation being discussed (unless I'm wrong, in which case, sorry). In Young's case, there was no-one on their feet except Youngs, the #9, so there would be no-one for a defender to bind on to.

 

[crossref]

But that isn't the situation being discussed (unless I'm wrong, in which case, sorry). In Young's case, there was no-one on their feet except Youngs, the #9, so there would be no-one for a defender to bind on to.

here's the scenario

49 mins. Ruck just inside Ireland's half. Players compete but end up all lying on the ground. The 2 players remaining ON their feet are Ben Youngs ( with the ball at his feet ) and Ireland's Jack McGrath. McGrath walk thru the middle of the ruck and goes for Ben Youngs.

here's the video
https://youtu.be/5vPrzhhu9QM?t=3451

(it's not completely clear to me that a ruck did form, but for sake of this let's agree it did....)
- ruck forms
- we all agree that the ruck hasn't ended
- so if the ruck hasn't ended surely Irish players are free to join the ruck (from the back) and bind with the one England player who is on his feet, over the ball...

 

[VM75]

- so if the ruck hasn't ended surely Irish players are free to join the ruck (from the back) and bind with the one England player who is on his feet, over the ball...

If we accept that W2 formed the ruck when he cleared out G3 then the two Ruck creators are now on the floor, G1
wanders up the side of the ruck & plays the W9 without either
a] coming through the gate
b] Binding onto G3 or W2 [difficult to achieve because they are both now off their feet]

G1 cannot play W9 as W9 hasn't ever joined the collapsed ruck, he's merely extracting/retrieving the ball.