[6N] Ireland v England

[crossref]

A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck

 

[winchesterref]

A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck

No, the ball is in the ruck, and BY has never joined it (no bind). There is a ruck that formed, players go to ground but the ruck doesn't end, and BY is not part of it at any point. Clear penalty.

 

[crossref]

So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?

 

[L'irlandais]

This has cropped up before on the forums. The "Law" protecting the 9 is unwritten, but is there for the safety of players off their feet. The quicker the ball comes out the less risk there is of them getting stomped on.

Clarification 8 2006
[LAWS]The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16 Ruck
Question:
1. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on an opponent as soon as his opponent has his hands on the ball, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
2. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on the ball as soon as it emerges from the ruck, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
3. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
4. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by staying on his feet but being in contact with players on the ground in front of him?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
1. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
2. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
3. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
4. Yes. If the player was on his feet and came from an onside position.[/LAWS]Law références have been updated since this was written.

So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?

For my money, Green needs to bind to one of the players now on the deck, before he can be part of the ruck. Binding to 9 is frowned upon. (It would be nice to have a Law clarification number that itemizes this point.)

The way I saw the action ; Green 1 and 3 hold the ball carrier, in an attempt to form a choke tackle/maul White 2 binds to Green 1. In the meantime the ballcarrier rolls to go off his feet and avoid the maul ploy? Taking G3 with him. White 2 attempts a clean out G3 at which point the near tackle becomes a ruck. Green must bind to one of these players on the ground if he wishes to contest the ball.

 

[ChuckieB]

The play shows that the initial contest was clearly won by white. With no futher players on their feet seeking to engage there is no opportunity to counter ruck unless BY had ignored the ball and looked to engage green directly himself. As he didn't there is no way I can see green could have ever won the ball legally after that point. I don't see the difficulty in this instance.

A new forward coming in before BY is more likely to stand as guard over the ball in which case the ruck could most likely continue or there would be a pick and go in which case the ball would be out!

 

[The Fat]

This has cropped up before on the forums. The "Law" protecting the 9 is unwritten, but is there for the safety of players off their feet. The quicker the ball comes out the less risk there is of them getting stomped on.

Clarification 8 2006
[LAWS]The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16 Ruck
Question:
1. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on an opponent as soon as his opponent has his hands on the ball, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
2. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on the ball as soon as it emerges from the ruck, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
3. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
4. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by staying on his feet but being in contact with players on the ground in front of him?

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
1. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
2. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
3. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
4. Yes. If the player was on his feet and came from an onside position.[/LAWS]Law références have been updated since this was written. For my money, Green needs to bind to one of the players now on the deck, before he can be part of the ruck. Binding to 9 is frowned upon. (It would be nice to have a Law clarification number that itemizes this point.)

The way I saw the action ; Green 1 and 3 hold the ball carrier, in an attempt to form a choke tackle/maul White 2 binds to Green 1. In the meantime the ballcarrier rolls to go off his feet and avoid the maul ploy? Taking G3 with him. White 2 attempts a clean out G3 at which point the near tackle becomes a ruck. Green must bind to one of these players on the ground if he wishes to contest the ball.

Almost.
All green player can do now is stand at his offside line until the ball is out.
Phil E gave the correct summation early on in this thread.

 

[ChuckieB]

A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck

Back to the England Italy game and all the discussions about a ruck being required to be made up of willing participants. You cannot pull someone in who doesn't want to be there nor can you engage the player acting as 9 who is just seeking to pick it out.

Have we have such short memories?

 

[The Fat]

So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?

Yes, and if the ball doesn't emerge it just becomes a "unplayable" with a scrum to team going forward. So something will happen, either the ball will come out or it won't and we have processes for either scenario i.e. either play on or scrum

 

[UpandUnder]

So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?

Technically yes but then that is when as a ref you would call 'use it'

 

[crossref]

I don't know, I don't like the idea of a ruck that you can't join / contest

Let's take W9 out of it for a momet --

if W9 was not there, what could G1 do ?
can he
- come through the ruck and pick up the ball
- come through the ruck and kick the ball
- join the ruck and bind on to the white players on the ground
- join the ruck and simply stand over the ball, with the ball between his feet

No, Yes, Yes, Yes ?

Now add W9 back into the equation - can he do the same things?

 

[Dickie E]

I don't know, I don't like the idea of a ruck that you can't join / contest

Let's take W9 out of it for a momet --

if W9 was not there, what could G1 do ?
can he
- come through the ruck and pick up the ball
- come through the ruck and kick the ball
- join the ruck and bind on to the white players on the ground
- join the ruck and simply stand over the ball, with the ball between his feet

No, Yes, Yes, Yes ?

Now add W9 back into the equation - can he do the same things?

I'm Ok with 1 & 2. If W haven't committed enough players to breakdown, bad luck for W9. Otherwise you have ludicrous situation where all W ruckers disperse out to the backline and W9 stands with ball at feet, scratching his nuts, waiting for ref to say 'use it'

 

[Camquin]

Why can he kick the ball but not pick the ball up?

I would say that he cannot bind onto the players on the ground as that would prevent them rolling away.
On the other hand they MUST NOT interfere with play until they have rolled away and regained their feet.
The ball carrier can of course keep his hand on the ball, but in this case he has lost contact and cannot have a second bite.

 

[crossref]

Why can he kick the ball but not pick the ball up?

because you can't pick up a ball in the middle of a ruck...

 

[ChuckieB]

I'm Ok with 1 & 2. If W haven't committed enough players to breakdown, bad luck for W9. Otherwise you have ludicrous situation where all W ruckers disperse out to the backline and W9 stands with ball at feet, scratching his nuts, waiting for ref to say 'use it'

or potentially a player standing guard over the dispersed/failed ruck desperately hoping some opposing player will join him and then feeling like a chump when they don't because he is not allowed to pick and go himself and he is then reliant on one of his own players coming in behind him and taking the ball. Time then goes in slow motion for him as he looking forward and guessing what is going on behind!

 

[menace]

So joining ruck law says:
(b)
A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.

Why do they have to join onto an opposition if it is already a ruck?
So what prevents green from binding onto a team mate and as a bound pair walking past the ball (w9 or no w9) and rucking the ball back. Ruck ended. Won't they have complied with law? Or is there some other law entry that Ive missed? I agree that it would look weird and players unlikely to do it...but could it be a way to compete a ruck?

 

[didds]

Why can he kick the ball but not pick the ball up?

I would say that he cannot bind onto the players on the ground as that would prevent them rolling away.
On the other hand they MUST NOT interfere with play until they have rolled away and regained their feet.
The ball carrier can of course keep his hand on the ball, but in this case he has lost contact and cannot have a second bite.

The entire confusion and mess lies with the fact that elite refs permit players to flop all over the place rather than stay on their feet.

didds

 

[ChuckieB]

So joining ruck law says:
(b)
A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.

Why do they have to join onto an opposition if it is already a ruck?
So what prevents green from binding onto a team mate and as a bound pair walking past the ball (w9 or no w9) and rucking the ball back. Ruck ended. Won't they have complied with law? Or is there some other law entry that Ive missed? I agree that it would look weird and players unlikely to do it...but could it be a way to compete a ruck?

Assumes the opponent is still on his feet and bound in and contesting the ruck. No problem.

Imagine the regular scenario of only two players contesting the ruck, so common these days, and they go off their feet and are out of the game. Technically I see that any further player wishing to then join can only join if he finds another opposing player wishing to do the same and on their feet to bind to.

I think that player lunging in into a pile of players on a purported "clear out" are acting illegally if the opposing player they are wrapping is off his feet. Yet we see it pass all the time. Players not seeking to regain their feet, rolling away do you ping him or then an " illegal" clear out of the payer by trying to take out a man who is obviously off his feet.

It's so imprecise but for me the laws pretty much support any decision the referee makes on the outcome under the circumstances!

 

[The Fat]

I don't know, I don't like the idea of a ruck that you can't join / contest

Let's take W9 out of it for a momet --

if W9 was not there, what could G1 do ?
can he
- come through the ruck and pick up the ball
- come through the ruck and kick the ball
- join the ruck and bind on to the white players on the ground
- join the ruck and simply stand over the ball, with the ball between his feet

No, Yes, Yes, Yes ?

Now add W9 back into the equation - can he do the same things?

You are missing the point.
G1 walking through the middle and picking up the ball is not going to get pinged for hands in the ruck, he is going to get pinged for being offside.
If the players in the ruck all end up on the ground. there is still a ruck as it has not ended successfully. If the ball is still under bodies and is not coming out (assuming you have taken W9 out of the picture) G1 can only stand at his offside line. He can't walk over the top and pick the ball out because he can't bind to join. As soon as he starts to step over/walk through, he is offside.
For the same reasons, he can't walk through the middle of the bodies and kick the ball because he would again be offside.
If there is no W9 there to extract the ball, the referee will simply blow his whistle for an "unplayable" and restart with a scrum. He won't just leave the pile of bodies there with G1 standing like a shag on a rock.

If W9 is there, the same applies to G1 until W9 lifts the ball clear and the ruck is over. Again, the ref is not going to let W9 dick around in that situation and will tell him to use it. If he doesn't, he'd better hope the ref thinks his team was going forward.

 

[VM75]

I don't like the idea of a ruck that you can't join / contest Nor do I, but the Elite game created the deliberately collapsed ruck/roll/clearout , so we are where we are..

Let's take W9 out of it for a momet --

if W9 was not there, what could G1 do ?
can he
- come through the ruck and pick up the ball No, he can't come through, only join the ruck or wait for it to be ended.
- come through the ruck and kick the ball No, he can't come through, only join the ruck & then use his feet to try & win possession of the ball
- join the ruck and bind on to the white players on the ground Yes
- join the ruck and simply stand over the ball, with the ball between his feet If he can join, then he can use his feet to try & win possession of the ball

Now add W9 back into the equation - can he do the same things?

Yes, he can do all of the bold above, but he can't engage with the 9 otherwise we'd have hardly any rugby !

 

[winchesterref]

You are missing the point.
G1 walking through the middle and picking up the ball is not going to get pinged for hands in the ruck, he is going to get pinged for being offside....etc.. If he doesn't, he'd better hope the ref thinks his team was going forward.

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods I'll buy you a pint! :aus: