Kick off in goal then dead

Ciaran Trainor


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Got this question when I arrived back at my club.
Black restart after a try has been scored and the ball goes into in goal.
Red try to gather it, has no real knowledge of the law, but at last second ball bounces up and hits red then rolls dead.
I say it option of kick again or scrum back.
Counter argument was well he has played at it and didn't do something immediately so it should be a 22.
Could have a point but I would have been happy with my decision.
 

crossref


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22m - [aside - wry smile - unlucky red ! but touched]
 

DrSTU


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Doesn't matter that it's touched. He was never in possession of it.

13.9(b), Kick again or scrum.



(b)

If the opposing team grounds the ball, or if they make it dead, or if the ball becomes dead by going into touch-in-goal, or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:

To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball, or
To have the other team kick off again.
 

Taff


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22m - [aside - wry smile - unlucky red ! but touched]
I would say Kick again / Scrum. The ball was kicked into in-goal and made dead "without delay". OK, I know he didn't mean to make it dead, but that's just tough. My logic would be what's the difference between the Red player making it dead by grounding the ball without delay, and accidentally making it dead?

If it had hit Red in the FoP and gone back into in-goal - fair enough 22m DO.

... Counter argument was well he has played at it and didn't do something immediately so it should be a 22.
Hell, don't say "immediately" someone will have a stroke. I think the phrase you meant was "without delay" ... which is slightly longer than "immediately".
 
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crossref


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Taff:282666 said:
If it had hit Red in the FoP and gone back into in-goal - fair enough 22m DO..

Well that would be a 5m scrum!
 

Dickie E


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how about this?

Ball rolls into in-goal from kick off and fullback kicks the ball, hard, straight into back of goal post. Ball then ricochets over deadball line.

Restart?
 

The Fat


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how about this?

Ball rolls into in-goal from kick off and fullback kicks the ball, hard, straight into back of goal post. Ball then ricochets over deadball line.

Restart?

Luckily for him, it would be kick off again or scrum back option
 

Taff


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Controversial???
Its not controversial to me. The lawbook gives us a definition.
Played: The ball is played when it is touched by a player.

Well that would be a 5m scrum!
Sorry, yes you're right. What the hell was I thinking? I even gave one of them last weekend. I blame last nights red wine. Very nice it was too. :biggrin:
 

crossref


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Luckily for him, it would be kick off again or scrum back option

if I was referreing, I'd give a 22m (after I'd stopped laughing !). He didn't make it dead. He kicked it up field, susequently it happened to rebound off a post and went dead. Same as if it had been charged down, or hit a team mate.
 

DrSTU


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As for my previous post. 13.9(b) covers this, he chose to make it dead by kicking it.
how about this?

Ball rolls into in-goal from kick off and fullback kicks the ball, hard, straight into back of goal post. Ball then ricochets over deadball line.

Restart?
 

The Fat


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Its not controversial to me. The lawbook gives us a definition.

My "controversial" comment was to your restart Taff and not what constitutes playing the ball.
Crossref picked up on it.
 

Dixie


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if I was referreing, I'd give a 22m (after I'd stopped laughing !). He didn't make it dead. He kicked it up field, susequently it happened to rebound off a post and went dead. Same as if it had been charged down, or hit a team mate.

Sorry Crossref - this is just wrong. Who was responsible for the ball crossing the DBL. It certainly wasn't the attacking team, which leaves us two possibilities - the defender or no-one. The latter is clearly absurd.
 

crossref


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Sorry Crossref - this is just wrong. Who was responsible for the ball crossing the DBL. It certainly wasn't the attacking team, which leaves us two possibilities - the defender or no-one. The latter is clearly absurd.

the defender was responsible - but to get the kick off again / scrum back option he has to make the ball dead 'without delay' other wise it's a 22m

He decided not to make the make the ball dead, but to play on, by kicking it up field. Yes, it then hit a post and went dead.
I don't think that counts as making the ball dead without delay.


Here's the Law (my Bold) - - what I am saying is that by kicking it, he chose the 'play on' option. He doesn't get two bites of the cherry.

[LAWS]13.9 Ball goes into the in-goal
(a)
If the ball is kicked into the opponents’ in-goal without having touched or been touched by a player, the opposing team has three choices:
•To ground the ball, or
•To make it dead, or
•To play on.(

b)
If the opposing team grounds the ball, or if they make it dead, or if the ball becomes dead by going into touch-in-goal, or on or over the dead ball line, they have two choices:
•To have a scrum formed at the centre, and they throw in the ball, or
•To have the other team kick off again.

(c)
If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.[/LAWS]

and surely kicking the ball upfield is exactly covered by the last sentence.
 
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Dixie


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He decided not to make the make the ball dead, but to play on, by kicking it up field. Yes, it then hit a post and went dead.
I don't think that counts as making the ball dead without delay.
What is the time difference between a) kicking it directly over the TIG line; and b) bouncing it off the post so it goes over the DBL line? If you award the drop-out, that also has to be taken "without delay" - but you've now established very clearly the temporal limits of that term. The defending team's prospect of actually achieving it? Absolutely nil.
 

crossref


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What is the time difference between a) kicking it directly over the TIG line; and b) bouncing it off the post so it goes over the DBL line? If you award the drop-out, that also has to be taken "without delay" - but you've now established very clearly the temporal limits of that term. The defending team's prospect of actually achieving it? Absolutely nil.

No I'm not relying on time I am relying on this bold bit --

[LAWS]c)
If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.[/LAWS]

which I think exactly covers it. The moment he kicked the ball up field he was electing to play on.
 

Browner

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If a player ' plays on' attempts to run the ball out of his in goal area, and is then tackled in goal whereby he grounds the ball. ( it never leaves the in goal area)

What is the restart & the law reference ?

Immediately Im thinking Scrum 5 attacking feed, but I'm not sure this is correct.
 

Dixie


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What is the restart & the law reference ?

Immediately Im thinking Scrum 5 attacking feed, but I'm not sure this is correct.
22m drop out. WHo took it in? If dewfence, 5m scrum. If attack, 22m dropout
 

Browner

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22m drop out. WHo took it in? If defence, 5m scrum. If attack, 22m dropout

Yes Dixie, that's my general rule ..... But it was the ' played it ' aspect that was nagging me .....

So, in this case, the downside of 'played it/ or delaying' is that if you get caught then you lose the right to choose 'kick again or scrum' on halfway, but still retain the 22 Drop out/kick ?
 

Pegleg

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Yep. first thing to remember when the ball goes into in-goal is who put it there. If it comes down to a 22 drop out or a 5 metre scrum that is the deciding factor.

The other option if the actions are "without delay" can seem to muddy the water a bit. But once you rule that bit out, keep the above paragraph firmly in mind.
 
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