Kicking out of ruck

Joe@trfc

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I was watching a London 1 match yesterday and the referee penalised a player for kicking the ball towards his opponents goal line from within a ruck

Can anyone tell me what law was broken by the payer doing this?
 

OB..


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I was watching a London 1 match yesterday and the referee penalised a player for kicking the ball towards his opponents goal line from within a ruck

Can anyone tell me what law was broken by the payer doing this?
How sure are you that kicking out of the ruck was given as the reason for the penalty? Unless you actually heard the referee say that, I would suggest it was for something else. Was the player part of the ruck?
 

Davet

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I was watching a London 1 match yesterday and the referee penalised a player for kicking the ball towards his opponents goal line from within a ruck

Can anyone tell me what law was broken by the payer doing this?

None whatsoever. And at that level I am very very surprised that ref would penalise that.

As OB asks, are you 100% sure that's what the decision was for? Or was he perhaps unbound and offside when he kicked the ball?
 

Joe@trfc

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Yes he came through the gate and kicked the ball before the SH could get his hands on it
 

Joe@trfc

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I can't be 100% I heard the coach say that was what it was for
The ref did not indicate at all other than to raise his arm

This post was really just to check I had not missed something in the law
 

Davet

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No such thing as a gate at a ruck. Gate is specific to tackle. All he needs to do is to come from behind the back feet of the ruck, or if he was part of the ruck, and fully bound (one full arm armpit to wrist), then break his bind after the ruck is over. If he was not behind the back feet, or not fully bound, then he was offside.

If he, "kicked the ball before the SH could get his hands on it", then it sounds like the ball was out of the ruck, i.e. ruck was over.

To come from behind the back feet and get to the ball before the SH he must have been very quick. The ref may have felt he started from an offside position.

He may also have been too close to the SH's hands with his boot and the ref felt it was dangerous - there is a very fine line between kicking the ball before a player picks it up and kicking it out of his hands.

However it is clear that the offence was not kicking the ball through the ruck, from your description the ruck may well have been over.

If it wasn't over, i.e. the ball was still within the arc of the back feet and the player broke his bind, or advanced from a onside position to kick the ball before the ruck was over, then it's simple and clear offside. At London 1 he might also have been yellow carded for a cynical professional foul. Maybe the ref was in a good mood...
 

dave_clark


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ah, there's your first mistake - assuming a coach knows the laws well enough :biggrin:
 

Taff


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Is it possible the SH had his hands on or very close to the ball, and the Ref thought it was dangerous? :chin:

I was told it was ok to kick the ball out of the ruck provided there were no hands on or near it.

If there were hands on it (or close to it) it's a PK for Dangerous Play.
 
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TheBFG


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I pinged a guy for this yesterday, hanging on side of the ruck he kicked the ball out if the ruck, oh and as it was 3m from his line he got 10mins to think about it too :wink:
 

upnunder


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Not sure if it is actually happening more often or if it is me noticing the increase in this happening. In my game yesterday players regularly tried to kick the ball out of the ruck. I penalised it twice for each side and ended up giving a YC for dangerous use of the boot when one team did it a third time after speaking to both captains about it.
 

Dickie E


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All he needs to do is to come from behind the back feet of the ruck,

At the risk of thread-jacking, what does this actually mean?

Law 16.5 says:
(c) Players joining or rejoining the ruck. A player joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck.

How close to the ruck does he need to be to meet this requirement? 1 metre, 30 metres or something in between? Can a winger start his run from behind the ruck off-side line and join the ruck at an acute angle?
 

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So long as when he joins it he has been behind the rear feet immediately prior to joining, and joins no further forward than level with the hindmost player.
 

Ian_Cook


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At the risk of thread-jacking, what does this actually mean?

Law 16.5 says:
(c) Players joining or rejoining the ruck. A player joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck.

How close to the ruck does he need to be to meet this requirement? 1 metre, 30 metres or something in between? Can a winger start his run from behind the ruck off-side line and join the ruck at an acute angle?



RuckOffside.jpg
 

Dickie E


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So if Blue 5 ran into the Blue 6 position and stopped, would he be able to recontinue into the ruck or would he need to retreat back to the Blue offside line first? I guess that technically he is offside once he stops at the Blue 6 position and is subject to penalty.

It hasn't occurred to me before that a player's offsidedness may be influenced by his motion/lack of motion.
 

Ian_Cook


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So if Blue 5 ran into the Blue 6 position and stopped, would he be able to recontinue into the ruck or would he need to retreat back to the Blue offside line first? I guess that technically he is offside once he stops at the Blue 6 position and is subject to penalty.

It hasn't occurred to me before that a player's offsidedness may be influenced by his motion/lack of motion.


Its more a dynamic situation than a static one

AIUI the intent of this law isn't so much to ping the player who is standing offside who then joins the ruck, it more to force the retiring player (who is perhaps coming back from a previous play) to go all the way back to the offside line before joining.

Take the example of a midfield break by Red.

When the Red player is tackled, gates appear immediately. Blue players are retiring, and must go through the gate if they wish to play the ball.

Then a ruck forms. The gates disappear and are replaced by the hindmost foot offside line. If there was no requirement for slow blue players who are still retiring to go back to their HMF offside line before joining, then they would gain a significant advantage by their slowness.

IMO, it is not so important to be strict about side entry for players who have already retired to the HMF offside and decide later to join. Their offence is less material than the one committed by the still retiring player. In fact, if a player is slightly offside, I would rather see him join the ruck than remain where he is. If he remains, he is liable to penalty.

[LAWS]11.9 LOITERING
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line[/LAWS]

IMO, players are not PKd under this law often enough. Loitering players may not be having an immediate material impact on the game, but they are, by their very presence, limiting the opposing team's options to "play the ball as they wish" and might very well have an impact on what is going to happen next.
 

Dickie E


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Ian, I understand your points. However, I would think that most referees would allow Blue 8 to join ruck but would ping Blue 5 for side entry.
 

Drift


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Ian, I understand your points. However, I would think that most referees would allow Blue 8 to join ruck but would ping Blue 5 for side entry.

If 5 came at the angle that is shown in the picture I know I would.
 

Ian_Cook


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Ian, I understand your points. However, I would think that most referees would allow Blue 8 to join ruck but would ping Blue 5 for side entry.

Why?

Firstly, there is no such thing as "side-entry". It is merely an expression that we use to quickly describe the actions of a player who either joins from an offside position, or who joins ahead of the hindmost player on his own side of the ruck.

Secondly, he has come from an on-side position and he has joined alongside the hindmost player. He has therefore met the requirements of Law 16.5 (c)

[LAWS]16.5 (c) Players joining or rejoining the ruck. A player joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck. A player may join alongside this hindmost player. If a player joins the ruck from the opponents’ side, or in front of the hindmost teammate, the player is offside. A player may bind onto an opposition player providing the player is not otherwise offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the offending team’s offside line[/LAWS]

However, as a further answer to your earlier original enquiry...

It hasn't occurred to me before that a player's offsidedness may be influenced by his motion/lack of motion.

...I think this is what you were looking for.

[LAWS]16.5 (d) Players not joining the ruck. If a player is in front of the offside line and does not join the ruck, the player must retire behind the offside line at once. If a player who is behind the offside line oversteps it and does not join the ruck the player is offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the offending team’s offside line[/LAWS]

The Law recognises that a player will likely have to go "technically" offside in order to join a ruck.
 
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