[Maul] Knees on the ground !!!

[rugbyslave]

I am now slightly confused, when a maul was formed no matter if the ball carrier went to ground the other players had no obligation to release the ball or the ball carrier, so if a referee calls maul how can he then ask for the other players to release the ball carrier. This tendency has started from the 7's circuit.
I guess if the referee kept his option open and does not call maul then he can ask the other players to release the ball carrier once his knees touch the ground.

Any ideas on this tendency !!!

 

[Phil E]

The way we referee it here:

If a maul goes to ground legally and players in the maul are bound onto the ball carrier there is no obligation for them to release. Peep; Unplayable, turnover.

What they can't do is pounce on, lie on, or hold onto the ball carrier AFTER it goes to ground. "Release!"

 

[Pegleg]

Sadly Phil, your interpretation - which I share - is not universally adopted in the north. The Roll away call is all too common. The "justifications" seems to be "it looks wrong" and it calling for a roll away keeps it all tidy.

 

[DocY]

I'm with Phil. If you've called 'maul', nobody has to release, even if it collapses, though I'd potentially ping someone diving into a collapsed maul (though would manage it first).

Not calling 'maul' is one of my bugbears. Very frustrating to see a clear maul, but for the referee not to call it, it to collapse and the put in go to the wrong team.

Sounds like the northerners might need reeducation.

 

[ChrisR]

I agree that 7s has possibly confused the issue. Mauls rarely happen in 7s. Usually it's the BC engaged by multiple defenders holding him up and attempting to strip him of the ball. This is still general play and can continue as long as the defenders hold up the BC and the BC can't get to ground and the BC support don't come in and join.

The BC will fight to get a knee on the deck and if he succeeds the situation changes to tackle and then the 'graspers' (they are not 'tacklers if they stay on their feet) have to release and the BC has to make a play with the ball. This scenario in 15s can be confused with a maul and a maul (with 2nd/3rd BC support joining) can be confused with a tackle. Hence the inappropriate call to 'Release'.

If a maul has formed in either 15s or 7s and the player with the ball goes to ground it is covered by 17.6 Unsuccessful End to a Maul:

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

Therefore it is not automatically a scrum call unless the ball is unavailable. If the defenders have their hands on the ball and prevent the BC from from making it available they do not have to release him should he get a knee on the ground and the defenders should get the scrum feed.

Should the BC find himself trapped in a maul, unable to pass the ball to his support, instead of trying to get to ground (and giving up a turnover scrum) he should force the ball to ground and convert the maul to a ruck. If the ball becomes unplayable in the subsequent ruck they should get the scrum feed.

 

[DocY]

If the defenders have their hands on the ball and prevent the BC from from making it available they do not have to release him should he get a knee on the ground and the defenders should get the scrum feed.

I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle and he's obliged to release the ball and the 'graspers' are obliged to let go of him (or the ball) before going for it again (15.6(c)).

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

 

[ChrisR]

I was referring to after a maul is formed not a tackle. I thought that was clear from the previous paragraph.

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

Except the subsequent scrum feed for unplayable ruck and unplayable maul are different. So the question is: did the ball make it to ground (and convert to a ruck) before it became unplayable?

 

[winchesterref]

I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle and he's obliged to release the ball and the 'graspers' are obliged to let go of him (or the ball) before going for it again (15.6(c)).

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

I'd penalise the defenders if I've called to them that it's a tackle/release/tried to manage it and they ignore me.

 

[DocY]

I'd penalise the defenders if I've called to them that it's a tackle/release/tried to manage it and they ignore me.

Wouldn't you apply the same management/sanctions to the BC, too?

 

[Phil E]

Wouldn't you apply the same management/sanctions to the BC, too?

We generally work in the order...
Tackler release
Ball carrier release

 

[DocY]

We generally work in the order...
Tackler release
Ball carrier release

Fair enough. In general I agree, but in such situations (at least the one in my head) I'm not so sure - I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC was very obviously on his knees, though, I'd agree the graspers should release.

 

[ChrisR]

I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC gets a knee to the ground, even if he gets stood up again, he has won the battle. It breaks the impasse. The BC must immediately go to ground and make his play with the ball. If he doesn't then ....... manage it.

 

[OB..]

If the BC gets a knee to the ground, even if he gets stood up again, he has won the battle.

Only if the referee sees it, however.

 

[thepercy]

Fair enough. In general I agree, but in such situations (at least the one in my head) I'm not so sure - I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC was very obviously on his knees, though, I'd agree the graspers should release.

Communication is key, shout "Tackle" and everyone knows, or should, that they need to release the BC, and the BC knows he can't just hold on to the ball and keep running. PKs to those who fail to comply.

 

[DocY]

Communication is key, shout "Tackle" and everyone knows, or should, that they need to release the BC, and the BC knows he can't just hold on to the ball and keep running. PKs to those who fail to comply.

Indeed. IME, in some circumstances this rarely happens, even when shouting. In that case I'm loathe to penalise one team or the other when they're both offending.

 

[Decorily]

I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle .......

Not everyone would agree with this statement.

Is the BC going to ground voluntarily a tackle?

 

[winchesterref]

Not everyone would agree with this statement.

Is the BC going to ground voluntarily a tackle?

Yes, because if the player has been held as in the definitions, law 15.3 says so

[LAWS]15.3 Brought to the ground defined
(a) If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground’.[/LAWS]

 

[Fatboy_Ginge]

Indeed. IME, in some circumstances this rarely happens, even when shouting. In that case I'm loathe to penalise one team or the other when they're both offending.

If you shout Tackle and the tackler doesn't release the ball carrier, given Phil's observation then he/she gets penalised. The first offence is the main one here. If the tackler is still holding the BC then how are they supposed to make the ball available, likewise the tackler is supposed to roll away. If they just lie there you'd penalise that.

 

[SimonSmith]

If you shout Tackle and the tackler doesn't release the ball carrier, given Phil's observation then he/she gets penalised. The first offence is the main one here. If the tackler is still holding the BC then how are they supposed to make the ball available, likewise the tackler is supposed to roll away. If they just lie there you'd penalise that.

I'm not as 100% on that latter statement as you might think, and I think it's an easy trap to fall into.

I think my role is to allow a fair competition for the ball, and to create space and time.
If the ball carrier is isolated and is tackled round the ankles, with a jackler about to strip, I'm not going to worry too hard about the tackler's failure to release the ankles. My priority order at the tackle is entirely informed by the circumstance of the tackle, and not by a a rigid 1 - 2 - 3 that has no game relevance.

YMMV

 

[SmeejDad]

Sorry to bring this up again chaps - I'm a new referee and only recently joined the forum so have been scouring the old threads and this one is very relevant to a situation I had last weekend.

So just to clarify: If the maul has formed with players from both teams bound, but, the ball carrier manages to get a knee to the ground at this stage is it play on? My point being - the graspers don't have to release the ball carrier once the maul has formed even if he gets a knee to the ground yes?

Thanks,
SD