Knock on advantage

Stu10

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Pickup the ball, pass the ball, kick the ball... All count as playing the ball. Jarrod said that if the team that made a knock-on are next to play the ball, then play should immediately stop... If that approach was applied today, then the try would have been denied.
 

Phil E


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Pickup the ball, pass the ball, kick the ball... All count as playing the ball. Jarrod said that if the team that made a knock-on are next to play the ball, then play should immediately stop... If that approach was applied today, then the try would have been denied.

Why on earth would you deny the try, the referee has the power to decide when advantage is over.
Most of us wouldn't have played it as long as this from a knock on, but well done to him for doing so and resulting in a try.

Your missing Jarod's point that if White had gathered the ball instead of just kicking it, then Black wouldn't have got possession, so then there's no advantage coming. You're just playing with words to fit your agenda.

You haven't got a relative called Chopper have you?
 

Stu10

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Effectively what's happening here is:
Knock on...advantage
Not releasing to a player on his feet...new advantage

At which point you blow up or call advantage over is up to the referee to decide.
Why on earth would you deny the try, the referee has the power to decide when advantage is over.
Most of us wouldn't have played it as long as this from a knock on, but well done to him for doing so and resulting in a try.

Your missing Jarod's point that if White had gathered the ball instead of just kicking it, then Black wouldn't have got possession, so then there's no advantage coming. You're just playing with words to fit your agenda.

You haven't got a relative called Chopper have you?

Why on earth would you deny the penalty in the OP?

Your previous post indicated correct to play advantage even though the offending team played the ball immediately after the knock on, but here you are criticising me for saying the same thing? :confused: Also, no relative called Chopper.


Ref would be playing advantage for the KO, and the moment the white player (or any on-side white player) plays the ball legally (ie picks up or takes possession) no further potential advantage can accrue so blow it up for the KO. In what you've explained there is no holding on penalty - the ref should have blown it up a little quicker.

I'm not at all playing with words to fit my agenda. Regarding the OP, Jarrod clearly said he would stop play if white played the ball first after the knock-on and would not have awarded a penalty for holding on the ground because he would have already stopped play. Jarrod would have denied the other team a penalty. I disagree with this decision, and to emphasise the potential impact of this approach I gave an example from my past of a try being scored after the offending team subsequently played the ball first following the knock-on, that being a hack through that was gathered and run in for a try - following Jarrod's logic, this try would not have happened... I'm not sure if my previous post was dismissed or ignored, but I followed up that this exact scenario happened in the semi-final game on Saturday.

If Jarrod would not award the penalty in the original example, then I would be surprised if he would play advantage if the ball was kicked... I'm pointing out the huge impact that could have. (When I say deny the try, I don't mean overrule it, I mean having stopped play would have prevented the try from happening). I feel confident in saying I would have waited to see how it played out before stopping play, the same as Luke Pearce, because anything can happen while the ball is still loose... I guess I don't fall into the category of "most of us"... not sure if that's good or bad!
 

Stu10

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I wouldn't, and never said I would.
I'm out.
And I'm agreeing and saying the same thing regarding the try on Saturday and the penalty in the OP; but you said I am missing Jarod's point and just playing with words to fit my agenda. I can't be agreeing with you and having a different agenda.

I'm trying to have a discussion on how best to play advantage and challenge perspectives, but it feels like I'm being accused of being subversive.
 

Dickie E


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Your missing Jarod's point that if White had gathered the ball instead of just kicking it, then Black wouldn't have got possession, so then there's no advantage coming. You're just playing with words to fit your agenda.
Phil, I think you are missing Jarrod's point.

Jarrod is suggesting that if White gathers ball on the ground after he has knocked it on, and then fails to release the ball to a legal Black jackler, then the ref should go back to the knock-on scrum. This isn't a view that I (or Stu10) share.
 

Volun-selected


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I would have gone with PK for holding as a 2nd offense.

Of course what would make it more interesting is what if this was an isolated white player and purple had a clear opportunity to break, or even a clear run to the goal line. At what point do you decide white holding stopped a probable try?
 

Phil E


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Phil, I think you are missing Jarrod's point.

Jarrod is suggesting that if White gathers ball on the ground after he has knocked it on, and then fails to release the ball to a legal Black jackler, then the ref should go back to the knock-on scrum. This isn't a view that I (or Stu10) share.

That's not how I read his posts.
 

crossref


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I actually thought Jarrod made an interesting point, that has been dismissed a little too quickly.

White knock on
(play adv)
White regathers ball.

well 9 times out of 10 or 19/20 that would be the end of it 'peep no advantage, scrum blue'

But, in what circumstances might you carry on playing advantage after white has regathered the ball ??

I think it's rather rare circumstances that this would be right thing to do, but such a circumstance is the scenario in the OP -- white has regathered, but h'es on the ground and isolated so unlikely to be able to keep possession for long . ... so hang on a second or two longer

But I can see Jarrod's point and - while I don't think it's right here, I do think it is arguable.
 

Stu10

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I think there are multiple lines of thought to consider as a ref... personally I thinking where has the ball gone, how close are players from the other team (e.g. if the full back drops a catch and no one is near, I would stop quickly), and is there risk of danger. If the ball is loose, I want to see who picks it up and what happens next before I stop play, are the non-offending team close to the ball and might they play it, but I'd stop play if the person who knocked on is going to be hit late by an over enthusiastic defender.

I'll admit that as a player I was always looking for the counter attack, and as a ref at age-grade anything can and does happen, so I'm inclined to wait and see what develops rather than stop play quickly. However, I don't think play should always stop immediately just because the offending team is next to play the ball.

In the OP, the defending team were in close proximity, with a purple player quickly over the ball, therefore I would have been playing advantage which would have concluded in a penalty to purple.
 

Dickie E


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But, in what circumstances might you carry on playing advantage after white has regathered the ball ??
a couple come to mind:

1. White SH knocks ball on at base of scrum, immediately regathers but is then driven backwards by 2 Blue flankers 10 metres where an unplayable maul ensues. Scrum on halfway for the knock on or scrum on White 10 metre line for unplayable maul?

2. White SH passes from base of scrum to his #10 who is waiting on his goal line to make a clearing kick. White #10 knocks ball on, picks it up and is swamped by Blue flanker. White #10 drops ball backwards in-goal where a Blue player grounds the ball. Try or Blue scrum for the knock-on?
 

Jarrod Burton


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a couple come to mind:

1. White SH knocks ball on at base of scrum, immediately regathers but is then driven backwards by 2 Blue flankers 10 metres where an unplayable maul ensues. Scrum on halfway for the knock on or scrum on White 10 metre line for unplayable maul?

2. White SH passes from base of scrum to his #10 who is waiting on his goal line to make a clearing kick. White #10 knocks ball on, picks it up and is swamped by Blue flanker. White #10 drops ball backwards in-goal where a Blue player grounds the ball. Try or Blue scrum for the knock-on?
I understand where you are coming from here Dickie, but I can't see how you should play advantage for #2 if the white player has regathered and then lost it again - how long do you wait given White has regathered - what if he took 3 steps and then got smashed? How long before he gets hammered do we keep playing advantage after a white player picks the ball up on the off chance they drop it again in a plum spot for the opposition to score?
 

Dickie E


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I understand where you are coming from here Dickie, but I can't see how you should play advantage for #2 if the white player has regathered and then lost it again - how long do you wait given White has regathered - what if he took 3 steps and then got smashed? How long before he gets hammered do we keep playing advantage after a white player picks the ball up on the off chance they drop it again in a plum spot for the opposition to score?
I guess I'd call it situational awareness from years of experience. It's one of those "oh, this player's got himself in trouble. I'll let things go for a few seconds to see if the non-offending team can capitalise."

Do you ever see an isolated ball carrier get tackled and you just know that 9 times out of 10 he's either going to be jackled or give away a penalty for holding on? It's a bit like that.

I'm not a fan of a maxim that says playing or regathering the ball immediately after an infringement should be blown up immediately.
 

Marc Wakeham


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We all understand the principle of "let it breathe" .Surely he it is a case in point. The defender regathers but is almost certainly going to be reuired tco relealse the ball the the oppo on their feet. . Wait a few seconds to see. Common sense.
 

Mipper


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In the OP, the defending team were in close proximity, with a purple player quickly over the ball, therefore I would have been playing advantage which would have concluded in a penalty to purple.
So, as the OP I am a little surprised at how this has meandered on. However, the description above sums up my perspective exactly.

I should add I guess, that as it happened it was my view (from the stand) that the white player dived on the ball, not in an attempt to carry on playing, but an attempt to stop the play - he showed no desire to get to his feet.
 

Marc Wakeham


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I should add I guess, that as it happened it was my view (from the stand) that the white player dived on the ball, not in an attempt to carry on playing, but an attempt to stop the play - he showed no desire to get to his feet.
No problem with him diving on the ball. But as soon as he fails to comply with the law, he's open to penalty. After all if the referee blows for "no advantage" as soon as he's gathered the ball, instead of "letting it breath", he has achieved his aim.
 
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