Knock-on at Quick Tap

[OB..]

In crossref's scenario (to which I was responding) he said it WAS accidental

The description he gave does not fit my concept of "accidental".

absent-mindly span the ball down onto his foot, tapping it back up into his hands again.

 

[Browner]

I wouldn't interpret 13.16(b) to mean that a scrum is the result of non-compliance.

(b) However, if the kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s team who are retiring are still in front of the ball, they will not be penalised. They must not stop retiring until they have been made onside by an action of a team-mate. They must not take part in the game until they have been made onside in this way.

The part in bold is pretty clear that the retiring players will not be penalised PROVIDING they continue to retire until they are onside or have been put onside by a team mate. If they are retiring and the 22 DO is taken when they are still say 5m in front of the kicker and they then immediately about face and hoof it up field, ahead of their mates who were onside, they are liable to a penalty kick sanction not a scrum.

They will only escape penalty if they continue to retire and take no part in the game until onside again.

you're suggesting that 13.16 should read like this ....?

[LAWS]. 13.16 The kickers team
(a) All the kicker’s team must be behind the ball when it is kicked.
If they are not then a scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.



(b) However, if the kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s team who are retiring are still in front of the ball, they will not be penalised. They must not stop retiring until they have been made onside by an action of a team-mate. They must not take part in the game until they have been made onside in this way.
Sanction: Penalty Kick at the centre of the 22-metre line.



[/LAWS]

 

[Dickie E]

The description he gave does not fit my concept of "accidental".

So, while disagreeing with crossref, you chose my post to respond to? You're a strange person.

 

[Browner]

Are you planning to complete this sentence at some stage?

Re:

. fullback dots down for a 22 then punts ball to his #10 who is on 22 to take the restart. Was the punt the restart?

IIUC OB is merely suggesting that a drop kick by the fullback to the #10 made from a position betwixt GL & 22mL , could potentially be considered ' kick taken' and the #10 then deemed offside.

So an unnecessary kick style transferring to the 10 risk...

 

[Dickie E]

Re:


IIUC OB is merely suggesting that a drop kick by the fullback to the #10 made from a position betwixt GL & 22mL , could potentially be considered ' kick taken' and the #10 then deemed offside.

and the ref who ruled it that way is welcome to any and all abuse he cops from players & spectators. While I wouldn't recommend that he drop kick the ball, there is no restriction on how the fullback conveys the ball to the #10.

 

[The Fat]

you're suggesting that 13.16 should read like this ....?

[LAWS]. 13.16 The kickers team
(a) All the kicker’s team must be behind the ball when it is kicked.
If they are not then a scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.



(b) However, if the kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s team who are retiring are still in front of the ball, they will not be penalised. They must not stop retiring until they have been made onside by an action of a team-mate. They must not take part in the game until they have been made onside in this way.
Sanction: Penalty Kick at the centre of the 22-metre line.



[/LAWS]

Not at all. It is fine as it is. If the team mates of the kicker who are in the normal position lined up along side or behind him set of early before the kick such that they are in front of him when he kicks, the correct sanction is a scrum to the receiving team.
13.16(b) describes what other retiring players must do and makes it quite clear they are in an offside position and must not take part in the game until put onside. If they do participate before then they are liable to the normal offside sanction. If they deliberately participate while in an offside position, it is not accidental offside (scrum).

Scenario:
Red have a 22 DO and the No.10 takes it quickly before his 1, 3 and 5 can get back even though they are retiring. The DO is short and high and comes down right near the retiring red 5 where it is caught by blue 8. Red 5 immediately tackles blue 8. Are you only going to come back for a scrum on the 22? Or will your decision be something else?

 

[OB..]

However if he was foolish enough to drop-kick it ...

Are you planning to complete this sentence at some stage?

Many years ago one of our senior refs was fond of telling the story from a cup match when the full back did just this. An alert opponent ran forward, grabbed the ball and "scored". Applying whatever 13.13 (c) was at the time, the referee allowed the try. The point was hotly discussed afterwards.

 

[OB..]

So, while disagreeing with crossref, you chose my post to respond to? You're a strange person.

I suspect crossref should have said "incidental" rather than "accidental", but it didn't seem worth a separate post. I was more interested in replying to your point about intent.

Did I really need to spell that out for you?

 

[Browner]

Not at all. It is fine as it is. If the team mates of the kicker who are in the normal position lined up along side or behind him set of early before the kick such that they are in front of him when he kicks, the correct sanction is a scrum to the receiving team.
13.16(b) describes what other retiring players must do and makes it quite clear they are in an offside position and must not take part in the game until put onside. If they do participate before then they are liable to the normal offside sanction. If they deliberately participate while in an offside position, it is not accidental offside (scrum).

Scenario:
Red have a 22 DO and the No.10 takes it quickly before his 1, 3 and 5 can get back even though they are retiring. The DO is short and high and comes down right near the retiring red 5 where it is caught by blue 8. Red 5 immediately tackles blue 8. Are you only going to come back for a scrum on the 22? Or will your decision be something else?

So, in your scenario: the sanction in 13.16 (b) doesn't need changing , but you'd sanction differently than it states ......... Is this what your saying? The Fat

?

 

[The Fat]

So, in your scenario: the sanction in 13.16 (b) doesn't need changing , but you'd sanction differently than it states ......... Is this what your saying? The Fat

?

What I'm saying is that it is obvious to me that if any of the team mates of the kicker, who are generally lined out across the field behind the kicker, take off too early and are clearly in front of the kicker and moving forward, the referee should apply the sanction listed for Law 13.16 and I would argue that it is specifically intended for 13.16(a),

13.16 The kicker’s team

(a) All the kicker’s team must be behind the ball when it is kicked. If not, a scrum is formed at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.


13.16(b) then describes what should happen if the kick is taken quickly and says what the offside players must do before taking part in the game again. At this stage the retiring offside players are considered to be "accidentally offside" if you like.

(b) However, if the kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s team who are retiring are still in front of the ball, they will not be penalised. They must not stop retiring until they have been made onside by an action of a team-mate. They must not take part in the game until they have been made onside in this way.

Sanction: Scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.


My question to all is what would you rule for the following scenario? Would you still only go with a scrum?

Red have a 22 DO and the No.10 takes it quickly before his 1, 3 and 5 can get back even though they are retiring. The DO is short and high and comes down right near the retiring red 5 where it is caught by blue 8. Red 5 immediately tackles blue 8. Are you only going to come back for a scrum on the 22? Or will your decision be something else?

 

[crossref]

Red have a 22 DO and the No.10 takes it quickly before his 1, 3 and 5 can get back even though they are retiring. The DO is short and high and comes down right near the retiring red 5 where it is caught by blue 8. Red 5 immediately tackles blue 8. Are you only going to come back for a scrum on the 22? Or will your decision be something else?

Without doubt, if I had encountered that last week I would have given a PK.

but I think that would be incorrect in Law, as you point out.

Odd Law. I don't see why players in front of a 22m drop out, and playing the ball should be treated more leniently than any other kick.

 

[The Fat]

Without doubt, if I had encountered that last week I would have given a PK.

but I think that would be incorrect in Law, as you point out.

Odd Law. I don't see why players in front of a 22m drop out, and playing the ball should be treated more leniently than any other kick.

I too would award a PK for my scenario.

It is Browner's view (if I understand what he is saying), not mine, that the PK would be wrong in law and that it would be a scrum at the centre of the 22.

I don't believe that the law is strictly limiting us to a scrum as Law 13.16 doesn't cover all possibilities. What law 13.16(b) DOES tell us is that the retiring players are definitely in an offside position until they are put onside by the action of a team mate.

 

[Browner]

I too would award a PK for my scenario.

It is Browner's view (if I understand what he is saying), not mine, that the PK would be wrong in law and that it would be a scrum at the centre of the 22.

I don't believe that the law is strictly limiting us to a scrum as Law 13.16 doesn't cover all possibilities. What law 13.16(b) DOES tell us is that the retiring players are definitely in an offside position until they are put onside by the action of a team mate.

The Fat, what I'm hopefully highlighting is that IF ' std/ normal " offside applies, why need L13.16 ? [ unless its intended to operate as an exception to general law] I'm only guessing that the Law intention is to standardise 22DO infringements into scrum /kick (or LO) options.

Don't think I don't understand your point, I do, & I'm more minded to a PK, inclusion of 13.16(b) appears deliberate though.

 

[crossref]

seems to me, in that scenario a PK is wholly deserved, but nevertheless would be wrong, as the Law is pretty clear

[LAWS]13.16 The kicker’s team
(a)
All the kicker’s team must be behind the ball when it is kicked. If not, a scrum is formed at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.
(b)
However, if the kick is taken so quickly that players of the kicker’s team who are retiring are still in front of the ball, they will not be penalised. They must not stop retiring until they have been made onside by an action of a team-mate. They must not take part in the game until they have been made onside in this way.
Sanction: Scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line. The opposing team throws in the ball.[/LAWS]

I dunno. Scratching my head - if it actually happened as described I would still be hard-pressed not award a PK !

 

[OB..]

Before 1996 only 13.16 (a) was in the laws (as part of Law 15 at that time). As now, the sanction was included in the paragraph rather than being set out clearly as the Sanction. When the wording of 13.16 (b) was added, it was included in the same paragraph, but a separate Sanction line was also added, which only specified the scrum.

There was a specific reference to the offside law in relation to being put onside, so it would be nice to think they intended the appropriate sanction to apply as well.

I have never seen the situation arise, but I would be reluctant to criticise a referee who gave a PK. I would, nonetheless, use the incident to raise the point with higher authority.