knock on in touch

[Dickie E]

https://www.facebook.com/messenger_...message_id=mid.$cAABa9HX7ogV72GWSlF1pyA1GLXEo

Hoping this video comes up.

One for the law purists. Black kick for touch. Gold player dives over touch line to knock ball back in but only knocks the ball forward. What's the restart? Scrum/lineout option to Black?

 

[Christy]

Can't view video
By your description .
If ball has crossed plane of touch .

Restart = line out for gold at place where ball crossed line .
Or back at place of kick , if out side 22 or inside 22 if taken back inside 22 by black

 

[Treadmore]

I can't see video either.

As per Christy's assumptions plus Gold player is in the air, and ball comes back into playing area directly off Gold:
1. It's not a knock on because the knock didn't take place in the playing area (11.1)
2. You've said it's not deliberate knock forward already, so no penalty for that (11.3)
4. Ball has been kept in play under the touch law (assumption) (18.2.c)

So play on!����

 

[Ian_Cook]

https://www.facebook.com/messenger_...message_id=mid.$cAABa9HX7ogV72GWSlF1pyA1GLXEo

Hoping this video comes up.

One for the law purists. Black kick for touch. Gold player dives over touch line to knock ball back in but only knocks the ball forward. What's the restart? Scrum/lineout option to Black?

Logically (as I see it)
1. Kick in General play

a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Gold
​

2. Kick from a PK

a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Black
​

Rationale.
The ball is still in play across the plane of touch and in flight until the conditions for touch are met, therefore a knock on can still be valid.

1a and 2a are just knocks forward
1b is in touch, but the kicker put it there
2b was not kicked directly to touch, but Gold put the ball in touch anyway (last player to play the ball)

 

[Dickie E]

Thanks all. Sorry about the video. The incident occurred in the 12th minute of Bledisloe 4.

It was as described by Ian's 2(b) and I like Treadmore's point about knock on only in playing area.

Here is a blurry still. Reece Hodge attempts (unsuccessfully) to knock ball back into play:

 

[Flish]

The moment he touches the ball it’s in touch is it not? So just a plain old lineout?

 

[OB..]

I agree with Ian Cook.

The legalistic argument that a knock-on can only take place in the field of play is a red herring. The legalistic refutation is that since the ball is not technically in touch, the only other option is to to infer that it must still be in the field of play (and the definition of Field of Play is incomplete/insufficient).

The common sense view is simply that the law says you you can play on. If the ball went forward, then Advantage my be played or denied as usual.

 

[Dickie E]

I agree with Ian Cook.

The legalistic argument that a knock-on can only take place in the field of play is a red herring. The legalistic refutation is that since the ball is not technically in touch, the only other option is to to infer that it must still be in the field of play (and the definition of Field of Play is incomplete/insufficient).

The common sense view is simply that the law says you you can play on. If the ball went forward, then Advantage my be played or denied as usual.

Logically (as I see it)
1. Kick in General play
a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Gold

2. Kick from a PK
a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Black

Rationale.
The ball is still in play across the plane of touch and in flight until the conditions for touch are met, therefore a knock on can still be valid.

OB, which bit do you agree with?

In the OP, the event is as per Ian's 2(b) which he says is a line-out (ie not a scrum option). But he then goes on to say that a knock on can be valid which I infer to mean that Black should be given the scrum/lineout option.

Just to make the OP crystal: Black take a PK kick for touch that directly (ie on the full) crosses plane of touch. Gold player dives over the touchline, and while in the air and before ball alights, attempts to knock ball back into FoP. He gets a hand to the ball but is only able to knock the ball forward and ball lands in touch.

What is restart? Lineout to Black or lineout/scrum option to Black?

 

[Ian_Cook]

OB, which bit do you agree with?

In the OP, the event is as per Ian's 2(b) which he says is a line-out (ie not a scrum option). But he then goes on to say that a knock on can be valid which I infer to mean that Black should be given the scrum/lineout option.

Just to make the OP crystal: Black take a PK kick for touch that directly (ie on the full) crosses plane of touch. Gold player dives over the touchline, and while in the air and before ball alights, attempts to knock ball back into FoP. He gets a hand to the ball but is only able to knock the ball forward and ball lands in touch.

What is restart? Lineout to Black or lineout/scrum option to Black?

Yes, that was my mistake. 2b should have been a line-out/scrum option to black because the Gold player effectively knocked the ball forward into touch.

For those who believe that a knock can only take place with the confines of playing area, please answer this for me.

A ball in play can only be in the playing area or in touch, it cannot be anywhere else. If a ball in flight is across the touchline, but hasn't yet met the conditions to actually be "in touch" under the laws of the game, and you don't believe it is in the playing area, then where is it?

 

[Dickie E]

I've had confirmation from our ARU law guru that scrum / lineout option is correct restart

 

[crossref]

hang on - is this the correct description of what happened

Just to make the OP crystal: Black take a PK kick for touch that directly (ie on the full) crosses plane of touch. Gold player dives over the touchline, and while in the air and before ball alights, attempts to knock ball back into FoP. He gets a hand to the ball but is only able to knock the ball forward and ball lands in touch.

What is restart? Lineout to Black or lineout/scrum option to Black?

i think that was the first time you mentioned that it was a PK - which rather changes things.


and the answer is

I've had confirmation from our ARU law guru that scrum / lineout option is correct restart

scrum / lineout to black ?

I don't see how that can be right. Did they give any explanation of how they arrived at the scrum option?

 

[crossref]

Yes, that was my mistake. 2b should have been a line-out/scrum option to black because the Gold player effectively knocked the ball forward into touch.

in which case I think you have to revist 1b which by your logic would be line out black - which surely can't be right

Logically (as I see it)
1. Kick in General play

a. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in the FoP.... scrum Black
b. Ball knocked forward and next touched the ground in touch, line-out Gold
​

 

[Dickie E]

hang on - is this the correct description of what happened



i think that was the first time you mentioned that it was a PK - which rather changes things.

once I realised that only I could see the video I posted (post #5) that it was as per Ian's 2(b) - penalty kick. And it really isn't relevant what type of kick it was or even who kicked it.

 

[Dickie E]

scrum / lineout to black ?

I don't see how that can be right. Did they give any explanation of how they arrived at the scrum option?

Until the ball touches the ground the ball isn't in touch. So a knock-on by Gold before ball touches ground, will be a scrum. Knock-on goes directly into touch, hence scrum/lineout option to Black. QED.

Even if it was a kick in general play, wouldn't make any difference. Gold has still put ball into touch and has knocked on in doing so. So scrum/lineout option to Black.

Here is the verbatim response:

When Hodge touches the ball, it’s still in play. Had the ball landed in the FOP, we’d be playing on. Therefore the game continues until the ball hits a blade of grass in touch. Logically, at that point, it’s been put in touch by gold (regardless of who kicked it) and it’s also a knock on (since he played the ball legally and it went forward). So: option of scrum or L/O to black.

 

[crossref]

Until the ball touches the ground the ball isn't in touch. So a knock-on by Gold before ball touches ground, will be a scrum. Knock-on goes directly into touch, hence scrum/lineout option to Black. QED.

Even if it was a kick in general play, wouldn't make any difference. Gold has still put ball into touch and has knocked on in doing so. So scrum/lineout option to Black.

Here is the verbatim response:

so what's the correct answer to Ian's 1b above ? rahter than lineout gold, as Ian first thought, you must be saying lineout/scrumoption to black?

 

[Dickie E]

so what's the correct answer to Ian's 1b above ? rahter than lineout gold, as Ian first thought, you must be saying lineout/scrumoption to black?

yes ..

 

[Jz558]

I think Ian's answer to 1b is actually correct but only because I seem to remember a previous thread (which I cant now find) in which a contributor sought clarification from their society who said that a ball put in to touch in this manner had not been put there by the player who touched it last but by the side who kicked the ball. I only remember this as I thought it was counter intuitive at the time and made no sense. Happy to be corrected though

 

[Rich_NL]

It seems wrong that if Gold catches it, leaves/misses it altogether, knocks it backwards into touch, etc, black has brought it out, but with the knock-on gold has brought it out. I understand the logic, but it doesn't sit right.

 

[crossref]

It seems wrong that if Gold catches it, leaves/misses it altogether, knocks it backwards into touch, etc, black has brought it out, but with the knock-on gold has brought it out. I understand the logic, but it doesn't sit right.

When gold leaps from FoP , I think the logic would apply to all of knocked back/forward/caught

 

[Dickie E]

It seems wrong that if Gold catches it, leaves/misses it altogether, knocks it backwards into touch, etc, black has brought it out, but with the knock-on gold has brought it out. I understand the logic, but it doesn't sit right.

Not quite. As soon as Gold touched the ball he is responsible for what happens next. So:
1. knocked back into FoP - play on (this was his intent)
2. knocked back into touch - Black lineout
3. knocked forward into FoP - Black scrum
4. knocked forward into touch - Black scrum/lineout option (what actually happened)

No different to than if these had happened on 5 metre line