Knock On Law .

crossref


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#1
Red kick deep

Blue 15, misjudging the ball, runs backwards and tries to catch. Running backwards all the time, he fumbles from his hands.

The ball goes forward relative to blue 15 but backward relative to the ground .. ie toward blue's own DBL

According to the Law, is that a knock on ?
 

Decorily

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#1
Red kick deep

Blue 15, misjudging the ball, runs backwards and tries to catch. Running backwards all the time, he fumbles from his hands.

The ball goes forward relative to blue 15 but backward relative to the ground .. ie toward blue's own DBL

According to the Law, is that a knock on ?
Cut the chase!
 

Dickie E


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I imagine the players & spectators would expect a whistle so whistle it is.

Similar to this. Blue #9 passes ball to Blue #10 at a 45 degree angle. It is not a good pass and Blue #10 is only able to get a fingertip on the ball such that ball is still traveling towards Blue goal line but at a reduced angle. Knock on?
 

Stu10

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I imagine the players & spectators would expect a whistle so whistle it is.

Similar to this. Blue #9 passes ball to Blue #10 at a 45 degree angle. It is not a good pass and Blue #10 is only able to get a fingertip on the ball such that ball is still traveling towards Blue goal line but at a reduced angle. Knock on?
Personally, I would call that backwards, play on... I would want to be in a good position to clearly see it though
 

smeagol


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Personally, I would call that backwards, play on... I would want to be in a good position to clearly see it though

This. I think the call could go either way, it's just a matter of selling the decision immediately and loudly if it's play on.
 

Harry

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The Ball went backwards. Play on. I was always vulnerable under a high ball so always tried to turn my back so that if/when I dropped it, it went backwards.
 

Stu10

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This. I think the call could go either way, it's just a matter of selling the decision immediately and loudly if it's play on.
Yes, I always call it clearly and quickly, since at age grade several players tend to stop otherwise.
 

crossref


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So we can see disagreement already on this very simple scenario

What does the Law actually say? technically is it a knock on ?
 
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didds

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did the ball go forwards off his finger (as its a knock not a pass)? ie did it go forward of a line through the finger paralell to the DBLs?
 

didds

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So we can see disagreement already on this very simple scenario

What does the Law actually say? technically is it a knock on ?


why ? the ball went backwards from the contact. yes it altered its direction but it never went forwards of where the finger was.
the analogy is a "bat on"£ pass - the receiver of a a pass rather than catch and pass, just (under pressure form an immediate defnder) bats the ball on its way to the next player.
Potentially that first pass comes at 45 degrees, and the bat on moves away at 30 degrees. Thats a 15 degree angle change. I very much doubt anybody would call that change of direction a "knock on" ( or if you like a forqrd pass but the batter never had control of the ball....)
 

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did the ball go forwards off his finger (as its a knock not a pass)? ie did it go forward of a line through the finger paralell to the DBLs?
off his hands, ball fall to the ground in front of him but (because he was back pedalling, ball actually travels backward over the ground (toward his own DBL)
 

crossref


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why ? the ball went backwards from the contact. yes it altered its direction but it never went forwards of where the finger was.
the analogy is a "bat on"£ pass - the receiver of a a pass rather than catch and pass, just (under pressure form an immediate defnder) bats the ball on its way to the next player.
Potentially that first pass comes at 45 degrees, and the bat on moves away at 30 degrees. Thats a 15 degree angle change. I very much doubt anybody would call that change of direction a "knock on" ( or if you like a forqrd pass but the batter never had control of the ball....)
is the Law for a knock on the same as a forward pass ? forward pass is judged relative to the passer (not relative to the ground)
 

didds

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is the Law for a knock on the same as a forward pass ? forward pass is judged relative to the passer (not relative to the ground)
well he didnt pass it. So its not a pass.

its a tip/touch off a finger/palm/hand/etc.

it went backwards from that contact.

Innit.
 

Dickie E


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well he didnt pass it. So its not a pass.

its a tip/touch off a finger/palm/hand/etc.

it went backwards from that contact.

Innit.
I agree with Didds. A knock on needs to be judged on its own merit (ie not what the ball was doing prior to the contact) and is relative to the ground only.
As opposed to the forward pass which is relative to the passer.
 

BikingBud


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I agree with Didds. A knock on needs to be judged on its own merit (ie not what the ball was doing prior to the contact) and is relative to the ground only.
As opposed to the forward pass which is relative to the passer.
Not quite, "Thrown Forward" is not relative to the passer, my emphasis:

Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line

So the ball is caught cleanly and the catcher whilst facing their own goal line throws the ball over their shoulder, this is "thrown forward" as defined above.

In the query about what occurs before contact, the OP, we all know rugby balls bounce in mostly random manner, hence "don't let it bounce". But if it bounces "forward" hits the player and then travels towards their own DBL then play on.

I imagine the players & spectators would expect a whistle so whistle it is.

Similar to this. Blue #9 passes ball to Blue #10 at a 45 degree angle. It is not a good pass and Blue #10 is only able to get a fingertip on the ball such that ball is still traveling towards Blue goal line but at a reduced angle. Knock on?
Do you whistle because people expect it or to control the game when infringements of law have occurred?

That's an incomplete scenario. What happens next?
  • Did 10 catch it or was the dynamic and athletic open side who was looking for the pop anyway, and covering just outside the 10, catch the fumbled pass and carry it over to score?
  • Did the blue 12 have to pick it off his toes and twang his hamstring?
  • Or did it go to ground?
  • If it went to ground closer to the oppo's DBL than where the 10 touched it, peep, knock on.
  • If it went to ground farther away from the oppo's DBL crack on.
  • Or if the oppo's 7 was having a stormer, putting the Blue 10 through all kinds of hell, sneak in to intercept the poorly controlled ball and stroll in under the posts to score the BP try and win the day? Good on you mate, well played.
Do you have any more scenarios you want to try?

Still absolutely clear to me.
 

crossref


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This. I think the call could go either way, it's just a matter of selling the decision immediately and loudly if it's play on.
in practice, i agree with this--
but does that mean that the Law is not clear ?
If you think the Law is clear, what do you reckon it says, and why could it be whistled either way?
 

crossref


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I imagine the players & spectators would expect a whistle so whistle it is.
I agree (I am pretty sure everyone would expect a whislte, and I would indeed blow my whistle)
But is that what the Law says ? The majority view seems to be that it's NOT a knock on.

But if that's the case then how come everyone on the field would expect a whistle, is the Law not clear?
 

crossref


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No.

Law book definition of forward is "towards opposing DBL."
relative to the player (as is the case for a forward pass) or for a knock on is that relative to the ground ? And if the latter, is that fundamental difference explicit and clear in the Law?
 
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