Knock On Law .

crossref


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That's an incomplete scenario. What happens next?
the ball hit the ground (I should have explicity stated that, sorry), it hit the ground in front of the player, but (because the player was running backwards) actually closer to the players own DBL then when it hit his hands
Still absolutely clear to me.
you say it is absolutely clear to you - but you haven't actually said explicitly what you think the answer is, so your view is not clear to me! Do you think it is a knock on or not?
 

BikingBud


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the ball hit the ground (I should have explicity stated that, sorry), it hit the ground in front of the player, but (because the player was running backwards) actually closer to the players own DBL then when it hit his hands

you say it is absolutely clear to you - but you haven't actually said explicitly what you think the answer is, so your view is not clear to me! Do you think it is a knock on or not?
I am not sure if you are being particularly obtuse or really don't get it. The query about the incomplete scenario was in response to DickieE, it came after I quoted his post, post #4! Perhaps the continuity of Blue 10's fingertip touch, as opposed to your Blue 15 knock back, passed you bye.

I offered a number of possible options that may occur next, as I felt that that DickieE had provided insufficient context to make an accurate decision, hence I indicated how they may play out and how I would judge them.

I did also offer a perspective about your hypothetical scenario, repeated here for you:

In the query about what occurs before contact, the OP, we all know rugby balls bounce in mostly random manner, hence "don't let it bounce". But if it bounces "forward" hits the player and then travels towards their own DBL then play on.

I trust that helps.
 

crossref


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I am not sure if you are being particularly obtuse or really don't get it. The query about the incomplete scenario was in response to DickieE, it came after I quoted his post, post #4! Perhaps the continuity of Blue 10's fingertip touch, as opposed to your Blue 15 knock back, passed you bye.

I offered a number of possible options that may occur next, as I felt that that DickieE had provided insufficient context to make an accurate decision, hence I indicated how they may play out and how I would judge them.

I did also offer a perspective about your hypothetical scenario, repeated here for you:

In the query about what occurs before contact, the OP, we all know rugby balls bounce in mostly random manner, hence "don't let it bounce". But if it bounces "forward" hits the player and then travels towards their own DBL then play on.

I trust that helps.
Ok, sorry if I am being thick

But I am *still* not clear what is your view on my original question in post #1 . (The bold text doesn't seem to apply to that?)

It doesn't really matter though - my purpose wasn't to show that it is or is isn't a knock on, but to demonstrate that the Law on knock ons isn't as clear as one might suppose. Your confusing posts are very helpful in that !
 

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Maybe I’m missing a subtlety here, but for me as long as the ball doesn’t move toward the red team’s goal line after being hit by blue then there is no issue.

All the ‘relative to player’ caveats only come into my mind if the ball goes forward toward the opponents dbl and we have the whole ‘well it went forward toward the opponents dbl relative to ground but was it backwards based on the passing player’s forward velocity’ conversation (as seen on recent threads).

If a player knocks the ball and it still moves toward their own goal and it stays in play, on their head be it and play on.

Conversely, if they’re running backwards, bat the ball hard enough that it goes toward the opponents dbl then I’m likely to see that as a deliberate knock-on/forward.
 

Stu10

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When I ref scenarios like this I try to make a mental note of where the player was standing at the moment of the fumble and where the ball subsequently hits the ground to gauge if forward or not.
 

Locke


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Ok, sorry if I am being thick

But I am *still* not clear what is your view on my original question in post #1 . (The bold text doesn't seem to apply to that?)

It doesn't really matter though - my purpose wasn't to show that it is or is isn't a knock on, but to demonstrate that the Law on knock ons isn't as clear as one might suppose. Your confusing posts are very helpful in that !
For me, the law is quite clear. Which way the player is facing is irrelevant. “Forward” is defined in the laws as in relation to the dead ball lines. If a player is facing his own dead ball line and the ball comes off his hand in the direction he’s facing, it’s definitely not a knock on or forward pass.
 
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crossref


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Let's try the opposite scenario then
#2
Red 13 and 14 running at speed and Red 13 passes (his arms go backward)
Unfortunately the pass goes behind R14
R14 tries to catch the ball behind him, and fumbles it. The ball hits the ground. From the fumble it has travelled backward relative to the moving player (landed behind him) but forward over the ground

Is that a knock on?
I am sure everyone will say it is, but it's odd right? When 13 passes it isn't a forward pass, 14s fumble behind him likely *removes* some forward momentum, but still it's a knock on
 

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Let's try the opposite scenario then
#2
Red 13 and 14 running at speed and Red 13 passes (his arms go backward)
Unfortunately the pass goes behind R14
R14 tries to catch the ball behind him, and fumbles it. The ball hits the ground. From the fumble it has travelled backward relative to the moving player (landed behind him) but forward over the ground

Is that a knock on?
I am sure everyone will say it is, but it's odd right? When 13 passes it isn't a forward pass, 14s fumble behind him likely *removes* some forward momentum, but still it's a knock on

Without seeing it’s hard to say - but for me I guess it would come down to “if that was an actual pass, would I blow the whistle?”

The key difference now is that the ball has moved toward the oppositions dbl - so it can at least come under the definition of forward.
 

BikingBud


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There are different components to the motion of the ball and maybe this is where you are getting confused. Consider the demo with the ball being passed backward over the head yet still travelling forward as thesis the simplest part of the concept.

Similarly, Red 13 passes backward legally to Red 14, but as they are both at pace the ball actually travels "forward" - This is not "thrown forward"

When Red 14 fumbles the poorly passed ball and it traveled backward ie fell behind them I would consider that play on - nothing to see.

If it is fumbled and falls in front, as they are still running up the pitch then it has travelled towards to the Oppo's DB - "knock on"

Again the definitions are there with my emphasis:

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

Really not sure how to try and explain this anymore😬 I feel like I am trying to explain a simple attacking 2v1 in a coaching session and the basic principle, of fixing the defender, is not being grasped.

What do you do in a game?

Do you get berated for the decisions you are making?
Do you hold off making decisions because you are unable to decipher what you have seen?

If no and no then I would stop worrying and move on.
 

crossref


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Biking bud, lots of words, but you still can't bring yourself to actually announce a decision!
 

crossref


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And one last one (that I know we have discussed before)

#3
Green 15 attempts to catch a ball
He is stationary and stands square on facing the oppo dead ball line

Ball goes right through his hands (his hands touch the ball) hits his chest and bounces forward and hits the ground

Technically is this
a) a player losses possession of the ball and it goes forward (=knock on)

Or is it
b) ball comes off the hands backward (play on) followed by, ball bounces off chest (play on)

Q1 What do you think is technically
correct in Law ?
Q2 What is the best decision to make on the pitch ?

If different, please explain.
 

Stu10

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And one last one (that I know we have discussed before)

#3
Green 15 attempts to catch a ball
He is stationary and stands square on facing the oppo dead ball line

Ball goes right through his hands (his hands touch the ball) hits his chest and bounces forward and hits the ground

Technically is this
a) a player losses possession of the ball and it goes forward (=knock on)

Or is it
b) ball comes off the hands backward (play on) followed by, ball bounces off chest (play on)

Q1 What do you think is technically
correct in Law ?
Q2 What is the best decision to make on the pitch ?

If different, please explain.
a) a player losses possession of the ball and it goes forward (=knock on)
 

Stu10

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Let's try the opposite scenario then
#2
Red 13 and 14 running at speed and Red 13 passes (his arms go backward)
Unfortunately the pass goes behind R14
R14 tries to catch the ball behind him, and fumbles it. The ball hits the ground. From the fumble it has travelled backward relative to the moving player (landed behind him) but forward over the ground

Is that a knock on?
I am sure everyone will say it is, but it's odd right? When 13 passes it isn't a forward pass, 14s fumble behind him likely *removes* some forward momentum, but still it's a knock on
Not dissimilar to LRZ knock on versus England:

As I said above, loot at where the player was standing at the moment of the fumble and where the ball subsequently hits the ground to gauge if forward or not.
 

crossref


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a) a player losses possession of the ball and it goes forward (=knock on)
And yet we saw Maro Itoje score a try in similar circs, remember? TMO said backwards off his hands and then scored a try with with his stomach
 

BikingBud


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Biking bud, lots of words, but you still can't bring yourself to actually announce a decision!
In fewer words:

When Red 14 fumbles the poorly passed ball and it traveled backward ie fell behind them I would consider that play on - nothing to see.

If it is fumbled and falls in front, as they are still running up the pitch then it has travelled towards to the Oppo's DB - "knock on"

I think I now understand why you have difficulty
🤦‍♂️
 

crossref


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Not dissimilar to LRZ knock on versus England:

As I said above, loot at where the player was standing at the moment of the fumble and where the ball subsequently hits the ground to gauge if forward or not.
So that should have been a KO?
 

crossref


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In fewer words:

When Red 14 fumbles the poorly passed ball and it traveled backward ie fell behind them I would consider that play on - nothing to see.

If it is fumbled and falls in front, as they are still running up the pitch then it has travelled towards to the Oppo's DB - "knock on"

I think I now understand why you have difficulty
🤦‍♂️
I would just like you to say
#1 is/isn't a knock on
#2 is/isn't a knock on
#3 is/isn't a knock on

There was a no point giving everyone rules to follow and asking to work it out. We already have that in the Law book

If you apply your rules, what answers do you get?
 

Rich_NL

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Is that a knock on?
I am sure everyone will say it is, but it's odd right? When 13 passes it isn't a forward pass, 14s fumble behind him likely *removes* some forward momentum, but still it's a knock on

Yes it is a KO, no it's not that weird unless you're new to rugby. Forward from hands/forward over the pitch is a clear distinction in the use of the word 'forward' even for most fans, let alone players and refs, no?
 

Rich_NL

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The law (in the definitions) is perfectly clear on what a knock on is. The wording of throw forward is less clear, but we know what is meant.

1 is not, 2 is, 3 is.

Coming off the chest is not an exception to failing to regain control, it's just not a knock on when that's all the ball touched and there was no control.
 
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