Knock On Law .

crossref


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Here is Paul Dobson discussing the knock on Law

"The knock-on would probably be regarded as the easiest of law applications, bread-and-butter stuff for a referee.

This may well not be the case and it may just be that the knock-on is the most abused law in the book - the one that regularly produces wrong decisions, which lead to stoppages when there should be none."

He specifically addresses scenario 3 (hands, chest , ground) for him that is NOT a knock on

 

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@BikingBud you said that I hadn't supplied enough information for you to answer my three scenarios.. I have re read all your posts, and I really can't see any questions addressed to me, unanswered. ?
 

Stu10

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And yet we saw Maro Itoje score a try in similar circs, remember? TMO said backwards off his hands and then scored a try with with his stomach
Do you have a video of that? Was there separation between player and ball?
 

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Here is Paul Dobson discussing the knock on Law

"The knock-on would probably be regarded as the easiest of law applications, bread-and-butter stuff for a referee.

This may well not be the case and it may just be that the knock-on is the most abused law in the book - the one that regularly produces wrong decisions, which lead to stoppages when there should be none."

He specifically addresses scenario 3 (hands, chest , ground) for him that is NOT a knock on

I've read that page twice and I don't see where he specifically addresses scenario 3 (hands, chest , ground)... Help me out with a copy/paste, please.
 

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This bit seems to me to cover ir


It’s the ball that comes his way from a team-mate’s pass or from a kick that is of interest
For a knock-on to occur in both of these cases the ball needs to go forward from the catcher’s hand or arm.

Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.

It is what the hand or arm does to the ball that counts, not what the ball does because it is oval. If the hand or arm does not knock the ball forward, but it bounces forward, it is not a knock-on.

For a knock-on, the ball must come off hand or arm, not any other part of the body – not the head, not the chest, not the stomach, not the thigh, not the knee
 

Stu10

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I'm not convinced any of those lines from the article specifically address the hands, chest , ground scenario... this strikes me as being similar to when a player loses possession of the ball forwards and gets a toe on it before it hits the ground and they claim it was a kick and not a knock on!

It is what the hand or arm does to the ball that counts, not what the ball does because it is oval. If the hand or arm does not knock the ball forward, but it bounces forward, it is not a knock-on.

I believe he is referring to those times the ball is dropped backwards and then bounces forwards when it hits the ground (typically seen when trying to catch a kick) and ends up in front of the player... I've seen many referees call this as a knock on, but it is not a knock on.

For a knock-on, the ball must come off hand or arm, not any other part of the body – not the head, not the chest, not the stomach, not the thigh, not the knee

I think he is referring to scenarios when the ball has only hit another body part and the hands/arms are not involved... this is my interpretation and I may be wrong, but I do not think this "specifically addresses scenario 3 (hands, chest , ground)".

Returning focus to your example in which the player tries to catch the ball, the "ball goes right through his hands (his hands touch the ball) hits his chest and bounces forward and hits the ground"...

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

The player tried to catch the ball, i.e. attempted to bring it under control, therefore the player had possession of the ball. The player then loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, therefore it is a knock-on. The fact that it hit his chest is irrelevant.
 

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it's not how I read ti - --- but you may be right - but then his article becomes more self evident.

It's funny that an article that starts off complaining about an ucnlear Law is itself slightly ambiguous and unclear. Just goes to show how hard it is to write Laws
 

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Do you have a video of that? Was there separation between player and ball?
I cant' find one = perhaps some else will remember it ?
As I recall
- he dives for the line with the ball in his hands
- he loses possession
- lands on the ball, making contact with the ball with his lower chest / stomach
- try given

The TMO argument was all about whether the ball went backwards from his hands, when he lost control, or forward.
Without a TMO I am sure every ref in the land would have said 'lost possession, knock on, GLDO' but with a TMO it's all different.
 

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@crossref it's hard to comment on that one without seeing it... if, for example, Itoje lost the ball as he was diving for the line and dropped from 12 inches above the ground, then it may be more practical/feasible to determine a knock-on by examining whether the ball went backwards from the hands; whereas if he lost control while upright and running, the focus should be on whether the ball travelled towards the try line after losing control, irrelevant of direction from his hands.
 

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@crossref it's hard to comment on that one without seeing it... if, for example, Itoje lost the ball as he was diving for the line and dropped from 12 inches above the ground, then it may be more practical/feasible to determine a knock-on by examining whether the ball went backwards from the hands; whereas if he lost control while upright and running, the focus should be on whether the ball travelled towards the try line after losing control, irrelevant of direction from his hands.
indeed, it would be good to have a video.
In that one the focus of the TMO was that (relative to the ground) ball went backwards from hands, and hit the ground, so no knock on, loose ball, and you can score a try on a loose ball with your tummy.

(I am not saying he was wrong - by the Law it was no doubt right, but before we had TMOs would never be clear enough to give)
 

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let's wrap this one up then --

I was exploring two issues where the Law isn't too well written.

KNOCK ON When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


First - does 'forwards' mean relative to the player (as it does in the context of a throw forward) or relative to the ground. This is quite fundamental, but the Law book doesn't say

Second - this 'lose possession and it goes forwards' does this apply when it goes backwards off the hand, but subsequently bounces off a different part of the body.

Again we didn't get as many people as I hoped willing to actually make a call, but the voted we got were (please correct me if I misunderstood)

1​
2​
3​
FrtP / BrtGBrtP / FrtGHand/Chest
StuNoKO
Dickie<blow whistle>
HarryNo
DiddsNo
VolunNo
Rish_NLNoKOKO

For me, with no TMO, in real time, I I'd blow the whistle for all three. But I think they could cause the TMO some head scratching.
 

BikingBud


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let's wrap this one up then --

I was exploring two issues where the Law isn't too well written.

KNOCK ON When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


First - does 'forwards' mean relative to the player (as it does in the context of a throw forward) or relative to the ground. This is quite fundamental, but the Law book doesn't say

Second - this 'lose possession and it goes forwards' does this apply when it goes backwards off the hand, but subsequently bounces off a different part of the body.

Again we didn't get as many people as I hoped willing to actually make a call, but the voted we got were (please correct me if I misunderstood)

1​
2​
3​
FrtP / BrtGBrtP / FrtGHand/Chest
StuNoKO
Dickie<blow whistle>
HarryNo
DiddsNo
VolunNo
Rish_NLNoKOKO

For me, with no TMO, in real time, I I'd blow the whistle for all three. But I think they could cause the TMO some head scratching.
🤐

It seems the laws are straightforward to me and others but I think I am now seeing your difficulty better - you are not reading the laws, including the definitions and you do not appear to want to accept what others, that have read the laws and definitions, are trying to explain, numerous times.

😩 😩 😩 😩 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
 

crossref


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Bud , after this whole thread, you haven't even managed to call the three scenarios
I am not convinced you have even read them carefully
 

BikingBud


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Ok, sorry if I am being thick

But I am *still* not clear what is your view on my original question in post #1 . (The bold text doesn't seem to apply to that?)

It doesn't really matter though - my purpose wasn't to show that it is or is isn't a knock on, but to demonstrate that the Law on knock ons isn't as clear as one might suppose. Your confusing posts are very helpful in that !
But it appears that it is to everyone else.
Bud , after this whole thread, you haven't even managed to call the three scenarios
I am not convinced you have even read them carefully
The fact that you dream up hypothetical and ever more convoluted arguments and get twisted around when people try to add clarification and discount it as just lots of words is unhelpful in getting well reasoned and engaging discussion.
 

Rich_NL

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First - does 'forwards' mean relative to the player (as it does in the context of a throw forward) or relative to the ground. This is quite fundamental, but the Law book doesn't say
It is covered clearly in the definitions section of the lawbook, as is the specific meaning of throw forward.
 

crossref


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It is covered clearly in the definitions section of the lawbook, as is the specific meaning of throw forward.
Throw forward yes (it's relative to the player, "arms of the player move forward")

But this thread is about knock on, and for a knock on its not specified
 
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