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PeterH


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This was my trip to SW last weekend...
Great game - pretty fast and open at times

Gutted at MD - thought I had a G
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RFU REFEREE
REFEREE ASSESSMENT FORM 2
NAME OF REFEREE: P. Houghton LEVEL: 7 SOCIETY: Liverpool
MATCH TYPE: xxxxxxxxxx LEVEL: 7 DATE: 25.09.10
MATCH RESULT: White team 1 ( 25 pts) –v- Black/Amber 1 (24 pts)
1. CHALLENGE OF THE MATCH:
Game as close as the score indicates. Scoring pattern – 3-0, 3-7, 3-14, 3-19, 10-19, 15-19, 22-19, 25-19, 25-24 with the visitors narrowly failing to convert a try in the last minute. Plenty of open play on a firm surface. The play breakdown areas – tackle and ruck needed the closest attention throughout.

2. MATCH MANAGEMENT:
Control. A yellow card given against the visitors for a team offence on 2/22 caused 10 minutes of uncontested scrums, front row replacements having been used. No foul play but an apparently dangerous tackle was dealt with appropriately. 20 penalties were awarded for a variety of infringements. More should have been given for ruck offences, joining illegally and moving into and remaining in offside positions. Tackle area well refereed – emphasis rightly placed on immediate release with tacklers not impeding. Advantage always looked for thus enhancing the flow of the game. Scrums well managed – of the 23, no collapses and only 2 re-sets.

Communication. Strong whistle. Might have been clearer with signals e.g. I was unaware of the yellow card decision.
Dealt well with the dangerous tackle on 1/35. Immediately involved captains – both agreed that a warning rather than a card was appropriate.

Positioning. Good at scrum – varying as between open and blind sides. 24 line-outs – apart from 2 stood at front – must move about more in this phase of the game. At ruck rightly concentrated on the action surrounding the ball to the exclusion of monitoring position of non-participants – several instances of mid-field creep not picked up.

Fitness. This was a fast game and there were occasions when he was marginally late at the breakdown.
. PLEASE ASSESS THE REFEREE’S MATCH MANAGEMENT USING THE CRITERIA MD

3. THE REFEREE’S POTENTIAL
Level 7 performance. Needs more similarly testing games at this level to determine his ability to progress.
Signature of assessor: xxxxx Date: 26.09.10
Name: xxxxx Society: xxxx

4. KEY COMPONENTS

AREAS TO DEVELOP
Line-out. Important to vary position on an irregular basis. Also to be mobile immediately the throw-in has taken place. Position of non-participants must be monitored.
Ruck. Players must not be allowed to join other than from the rear, nor must they be allowed to move into and remain in offside positions. Important to monitor position of non-participants.


REFEREE’S STRENGTHS
.Advantage. Particularly well refereed- signalling as necessary and verbally distinguishing as between scrum and penalty advantage.
Tackle. Consistent in insisting on immediate release by tackler and correct application of law by tacklers.
:
 

ex-lucy


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you could have argued better for a G?
line outs .. more and more assessors are asking for varied posns ... i know .. i know .. more issues/ flashpoints are likely to happen at the front ... hence why we stand there ... downtime preventative comms can sort this to give you that option to stand at back to glare at 10s ..

as for posn at rucks
Positioning. "At ruck rightly concentrated on the action surrounding the ball to the exclusion of monitoring position of non-participants – several instances of mid-field creep not picked up."
this could be the fall out of the new directives .. we are all so intensely watching the process of tackles, tackle zones and rucks .. we forget to move away .. i know...
We have been told to check the tackle process intensely ... seems like for a few weeks until we are confident in our decision making process of the tackle that this will be at the exclusion of other stuff.

did you debate with the assessor enough on his areas to develop?
or agree with him?
 

Simon Thomas


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2. MATCH MANAGEMENT:
Control. More should have been given for ruck offences, joining illegally and moving into and remaining in offside positions.

Communication. Might have been clearer with signals e.g. I was unaware of the yellow card decision.

Positioning. several instances of mid-field creep not picked up.

Fitness. there were occasions when he was marginally late at the breakdown.

3. THE REFEREE’S POTENTIAL
Needs more similarly testing games at this level to determine his ability to progress.
4. KEY COMPONENTS

AREAS TO DEVELOP
Line-out. Important to vary position on an irregular basis.

Ruck. Players must not be allowed to join other than from the rear, nor must they be allowed to move into and remain in offside positions. Important to monitor position of non-participants.


:

Peter - thanks for sharing.

How can you expect a G with the above comments - G is an 80-85% benchmark in all components ?

The report indicates that your ruck management let you down.

There is nothing wrong with MD, just shows you have some development points to work on to progress, which should be well within your scope.

Good luck - lots of positive things (tackle especially) to take forward and push yourself to get those Gs.
 

Dixie


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Peter, only you know whether the action on the day and the report of that action marry up. There are some interesting aspects of this report, though.

a) "The play breakdown areas – tackle and ruck needed the closest attention throughout. ... At ruck rightly concentrated on the action surrounding the ball to the exclusion of monitoring position of non-participants – several instances of mid-field creep not picked up." Is this a criticism or praise? It looks like praise (well done for realising that the big issue was the breakdown, which required you to ignore the trivial stuff), but actually reads like a criticism - which I suspect is what it was. ST read it as such.

b) "Fitness. This was a fast game and there were occasions when he was marginally late at the breakdown." There are any number of reasons other than fitness why you might occasionally be marginally late: blocked by a player, monitoring a potential flashpoint at a previous breakdown, etc. I wonder if this was fair comment?

c) "24 line-outs – apart from 2, stood at front – must move about more in this phase of the game. " This one always irritates me. It's trotted out as an article of faith, usually (as here) with no rationale given in support. If all but two of the throws WENT to the front, what is wrong with the ref BEING at the front?
 

Dixie


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And another thing!

It's not clear from the report why the substituted FRs did not come back onto the pitch, with the skipper nominating a player to go off, when the scrums went uncontested. L.7 probably had a squad of 19 or more; were both the FR replacements actually broken 22 minutes into the second half?
 

PeterH


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Peter, only you know whether the action on the day and the report of that action marry up. There are some interesting aspects of this report, though.

a) "The play breakdown areas – tackle and ruck needed the closest attention throughout. ... At ruck rightly concentrated on the action surrounding the ball to the exclusion of monitoring position of non-participants – several instances of mid-field creep not picked up." Is this a criticism or praise? It looks like praise (well done for realising that the big issue was the breakdown, which required you to ignore the trivial stuff), but actually reads like a criticism - which I suspect is what it was. ST read it as such.
I thought that was praise!

b) "Fitness. This was a fast game and there were occasions when he was marginally late at the breakdown." There are any number of reasons other than fitness why you might occasionally be marginally late: blocked by a player, monitoring a potential flashpoint at a previous breakdown, etc. I wonder if this was fair comment?
I am an ex FR player and am never going to be the fastest! But I work hard on getting moving quickly...
Can't remember now - but one try was an 80m interception - I was no more than 10m away when he dotted it down - pleased me anyway!!


c) "24 line-outs – apart from 2, stood at front – must move about more in this phase of the game. " This one always irritates me. It's trotted out as an article of faith, usually (as here) with no rationale given in support. If all but two of the throws WENT to the front, what is wrong with the ref BEING at the front?

I normally get grief for moving around when all the action is at 2 and hookers.. so seeing every ball bar about 3 went to front - I was happy....
And another thing!

It's not clear from the report why the substituted FRs did not come back onto the pitch, with the skipper nominating a player to go off, when the scrums went uncontested. L.7 probably had a squad of 19 or more; were both the FR replacements actually broken 22 minutes into the second half?
First FR went off in 1st half... so when the FR went for a prof foul - diving in on 5m line - went uncontested - then back to normal when he came out... the assessor praised me for no YC - till I explained that I had given 1 out... should have kept quiet!
 

Davet

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Varying position at the lineout gives you different angles of view and enables you to get a more rounded understanding of who is doing what to whom, and why.

Even if all the action is at the front a view of the front from behind may be instructive.
 

andyscott


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Sometimes you have to do things for the game and then sometimes you have to do things for an assessor :wink:
 

OB..


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Sometimes you have to do things for the game and then sometimes you have to do things for an assessor :wink:

If you can't see that there is value in an occasional view from the back of the lineout, then perhaps you are missing something?
 

andyscott


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If you can't see that there is value in an occasional view from the back of the lineout, then perhaps you are missing something?

Didnt argue otherwise ;) in fact I move to see the sneaky no4 blocking the pods ;)

But we all know certain Assesors like certain things. In fact some referees keep a book on Assesors just like clubs keep books on referees ;)
 

JonnoNeath


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Didnt argue otherwise ;) in fact I move to see the sneaky no4 blocking the pods ;)

But we all know certain Assesors like certain things. In fact some referees keep a book on Assesors just like clubs keep books on referees ;)

Sounds like a good idea -- I know of some particular assessor quirks and should start making notes. One assessor likes the referee to make the mark where a try was scored so that the kicker doesn't edge one way or the other...even though the referee only needs to get into line with where the try was scored whilst walking back.
 

Ian_Cook


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If you can't see that there is value in an occasional view from the back of the lineout, then perhaps you are missing something?


I have posted this picture before

Lineout-2.jpg


These are the "approximate" places I would usually stand at line outs. For this throw, 4 or 5 usually; with the white team throwing, 1 or 2.

Occasionally, I would turn up in the zipper at 3; more so when I first started refereeing, but as I got better, I learned that I did not need to be in line with the throw to see it was straight enough. Seeing how the players jumped for the ball was usually a good enough clue (no lifting in my day).
 

Dixie


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For this throw, 4 or 5 usually; with the white team throwing, 1 or 2.
Interesting that you would stand on the defensive side of the lineout, forcing you to navigate through fourteen forwards if you are interested in getting in line with the ball (to spot a forward pass, for example), and if you take a direct line to the next breakdown, risking getting in between the defensive line and the attack.

In RFU-land, we are also encouraged to use 1,2, 4 or 5 - but in mirror image to you - i.e. 1 or 2 with Blue throwing, 4 or 5 with White throwing. We might adopt your stance at a 5m lineout where a catch and drive is likely, allowing us to judge a collapse or a score - but probably not elsewhere on the park.
 

Ian_Cook


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Interesting that you would stand on the defensive side of the lineout, forcing you to navigate through fourteen forwards if you are interested in getting in line with the ball (to spot a forward pass, for example), and if you take a direct line to the next breakdown, risking getting in between the defensive line and the attack.

In RFU-land, we are also encouraged to use 1,2, 4 or 5 - but in mirror image to you - i.e. 1 or 2 with Blue throwing, 4 or 5 with White throwing. We might adopt your stance at a 5m lineout where a catch and drive is likely, allowing us to judge a collapse or a score - but probably not elsewhere on the park.

We were coached to stand in the defensive line as a preference, so as to not be in the way of the team with the ball. That way, we would end up running across the field with the ball carrier(s) coming more or less toward us rather than chasing them downfield. Effectively, we end up running diagonally to the next play. This would allow us to arrive at the tackle quicker and approaching from side on rather than arriving from behind the attacking line. That way, we were more likely to be up with or ahead of the play instead of always playing catch-up.

The other thing to consider, of course, is that at grass roots level before the days of lifting, possession from a team's own throw in a line-out was less of a certainty than it is now, so there was a good possibility that no matter what side we stood on, we had a good chance of ending up on the "wrong" side.
 

ex-lucy


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i agree with Dixie ... so why is the ref in orange standing there
cant see what props at 3 are doing .. and they are the likely perps ... i tell you !!
nice wide gap though ...
for me .. depending on status of game .. sun posn ... field posn ..
i would say 75% at 1, 20% at 2 ... 5% ad hoc
only 3 if i had Ars
only 5 if deep in 22m
never 4
 

Enrique


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I do more or less like ex-lucy, 'cept that if everything has gone OK at the front after several lineouts, I try a few 3s even in the absence of ARs.
 

ex-lucy


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I do more or less like ex-lucy, 'cept that if everything has gone OK at the front after several lineouts, I try a few 3s even in the absence of ARs.

Enrique, i have played 3 in the line out ...and waited for the referee to go to posn '3' before unleashing right/left hook, stamping on toes, pushing oppo 2 across the line .. pushing oppo 3 across the line ..
ok you may see some of these .. but if my 4 and 5 in the line out move across obstructing your view you wont ..

to a beginner i would say .. stay at front .. until confidant that 3 is behaving ... then try this ... move to back and as ball comes in move to front watching 3 etc.. when confidant with his behaviour then maybe move to back and stay there
 

Enrique


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Thanks for the useful advice, ex-lucy! I'll try it.

I played 4, 5 or 6 in the line, so I'm aware of some of the tricks... but every game one learns a new one :hap:
 

Simon Thomas


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just to add to ex-Lucy's comment, as SH I would tell my front pod if ref had gone to back, so it was open season time ! :biggrin:
 
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