Law 15.7 binding onto player in the ruck

[lawsons]

Some of the videos in the rugby laws app are baffling to me. Look at this one. White 18 gets pinged for playing the ball, just before yellow 9 does the same. Apparently this is an example of him not binding. Is he supposed to bind onto yellow 9 or will he then get pinged for playing the 9. There is no one else to bind to.

Is there a legal way for white 18 to win this ball?

 

[Treadmore]

It's not clear but the ref appears to give an offside signal with his left arm. Either way, weird choice for that law.

 

[Arabcheif]

I think it's cause there had been a ruck. Those 2 players went to ground. The ball was still in the the ruck/tackle area, so he was offside or in from the side because he didn't go through the gate? It's the same video on the website.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Its a ruck, and the ball is not out.

There is no legal way for white 18 to play the ball with his hands (PK for hands in the ruck)

There is no legal way for him to step forward until the ball is out of the ruck (PK for offside at the ruck)

His only legal option is to wait until the Gold 9 lifts the ball, and THEN step forward and attempt to tackle him before he can get the ball away.

 

[chbg]

Its a ruck, and the ball is not out.

There is no legal way for white 18 to play the ball with his hands (PK for hands in the ruck)

There is no legal way for him to step forward until the ball is out of the ruck (PK for offside at the ruck)

His only legal option is to wait until the Gold 9 lifts the ball, and THEN step forward and attempt to tackle him before he can get the ball away.

If it is still a ruck, should there not be a legal way for him to join it, even if it is on the ground (obviously not 'collapsed' because that is not allowed)?

 

[crossref]

In theory he could bind on and push them all off it ?

 

[didds]

But if all the "participants" are collapsed and laying all over the floor, the new binding rucker most likely will end up with his shoulders below his hips on contat - which is at least a bad technical point, and is ringing a bell about PK/illegal ruck entry etc

??

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

If it is still a ruck, should there not be a legal way for him to join it, even if it is on the ground (obviously not 'collapsed' because that is not allowed)?

Sure


[LAWS]Joining a ruck

5. An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line.

6. A player may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player.

7. A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body[/LAWS]


White 18 didn't do any of these things. Instead, he advanced ahead of the ruck offside line while the ball was still in the ruck and tried to pick it up.

 

[Treadmore]

Sure


[LAWS]Joining a ruck

5. An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line.

6. A player may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player.

7. A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body[/LAWS]


White 18 didn't do any of these things. Instead, he advanced ahead of the ruck offside line while the ball was still in the ruck and tried to pick it up.

I see the white 19 form a ruck and drive the gold player off the ball.

I'd say the ruck has ended because the ball is clear of the players that formed the ruck.

If, as WR appear to, you think there is still a ruck (whose participants are now on the ground) then the white offside line is formed by White 19, and White 18 remains behind White 19. There are still tacklers on the ground but we went from tackle phase to ruck phase already, so no TWOL.

Before White 18 goes for the exposed ball, Gold 14, the tackled player, plays the ball again after having released it.

I don't think this is a great clip for law 15.7!

 

[Ian_Cook]

I see the white 19 form a ruck and drive the gold player off the ball.

I'd say the ruck has ended because the ball is clear of the players that formed the ruck.

Show me where it says that in Law. All I can find is....

[LAWS]ENDING A RUCK
18. The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.[/LAWS]

The "players that formed the ruck" are not mentioned.

Given your interpretation, what happens if another player binds onto a player who formed the ruck. If the ball then moves behind/beyond the feet of the player who formed it, but remains in front of the feet of the player who just joined, then your interpretation above would mean that the ball has left the ruck!

If, as WR appear to, you think there is still a ruck (whose participants are now on the ground) then the white offside line is formed by White 19, and White 18 remains behind White 19. There are still tacklers on the ground but we went from tackle phase to ruck phase already, so no TWOL.

Firstly, once a ruck its formed, it does not matter if all the players have gone off their feet - the ruck remains a ruck until the ball has left it.

Second, I completely disagree with the bolded statement.

The white offside line is the white line I have drawn past the gold player's right shoulder

The gold offside line is the gold line I have drawn behind the players hindmost to the gold side

[LAWS]OFFSIDE AT A RUCK
4. Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.[/LAWS]

I know it used to say hindmost foot of the hindmost team mate, but not any more - that law has changed.

I don't think this is a great clip for law 15.7!

I agree. With anything upwards of 150 tackle/rucks per game, you would think that one game out to be enough to give a few better examples to choose from

 

[Treadmore]

Ian
1. After white 19 clears the gold player the ball is left exposed, it has left the ruck, in my view. In this case the ruck moved beyond the ball.

2. The lines you have drawn are for those players involved in the tackle. A ruck was formed, a new phase with its own offside lines. White 19 was the only white player in the ruck. You have used tackle participants, not ruck participants to set the offside line for white.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian
1. After white 19 clears the gold player the ball is left exposed, it has left the ruck, in my view. In this case the ruck moved beyond the ball.

We'll have to disagree on that. IMO, the ball is still in the ruck. I would have PK White 18 for offside at the ruck.

2. The lines you have drawn are for those players involved in the tackle. A ruck was formed, a new phase with its own offside lines. White 19 was the only white player in the ruck. You have used tackle participants, not ruck participants to set the offside line for white.

Nope, the law is clear unequivocal on that..

[LAWS]OFFSIDE AT A RUCK
4. Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any ruck participant. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.[/LAWS]

Nothing prevents the ruck offside lines being the same as the TWOL.

Those players on the ground are still ruck participants even if they are on the ground/off their feet. Once a ruck is formed there are only three ways that it can end - the players going off their feet is not one of them (unless it is deliberate and then it ends with a PK).

The fact that White 19 has driven through is irrelevant, he does not carry the offside line forward with him as he does so, the offside line remains "the hindmost point of any ruck participant".

 

[Arabcheif]

Ian_Cook - Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your saying with this part

"The fact that White 19 has driven through is irrelevant, he does not carry the offside line forward with him as he does so, the offside line remains "the hindmost point of any ruck participant"."

This is how rucks are coached. You drive your opponent back over the ball, once your past the ball another player can then pick the ball up (assuming the driving player is still bound on). Doesn't matter if the initial tackler and BC are there. Tha's what I've been coached and we've had many refs, ref it that way too.

 

[crossref]

Arab they changed the ruck law

Offside used to be the hindmost foot (of a person on your team on his feet)
Now it is hindmost body part (of any player of either team even if on floor)

Unintended consequences I reckon
Not well thought through

 

[Arabcheif]

Arab they changed the ruck law

Offside used to be the hindmost foot (of a person on your team on his feet)
Now it is hindmost body part (of any player of either team even if on floor)

Unintended consequences I reckon
Not well thought through

This I under stand, however I've been advised that the off feet participants "don't count" as long as the rucker drives over and past the ball. The ruck is the person or people on their feet. So the former participants are no longer classed as participants. That's how it's reffed up here in the Cali leagues anyway.

 

[crossref]

(this diagram is on the web - not in the app)



NB this is a recent Law change - 2019 I think. For rucks to make the Law the same as for a TWOL)

 

[Treadmore]

Those players on the ground are still ruck participants even if they are on the ground/off their feet.

Apart from the two players that formed the ruck, the other players on the ground were not ruck participants (they were tackle participants). I do not believe they become ruck participants just because they are on the ground nearby to the ruck.

I do not disagree with your statement about a ruck not necessarily ending because participants have gone off their feet.

 

[crossref]

Apart from the two players that formed the ruck, the other players on the ground were not ruck participants (they were tackle participants). I do not believe they become ruck participants just because they are on the ground nearby to the ruck.

I do not disagree with your statement about a ruck not necessarily ending because participants have gone off their feet.

Is it practical to distinguish ?

 

[Treadmore]

Is it practical to distinguish ?

?
Why not?

 

[crossref]

?
Why not?

seems unrealistic for the ref - and all the arriving players - to expect to keep tabs on who is who, in the ground