Law 19.5 (b) - Player With Foot In Touch Question

jdeagro


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[LAWS]Law 19.5 (b) : If a player with one or both feet on or beyond the touch-line (or touch-in-goal line), picks up the ball, which was in motion within the playing area, that player is deemed to have picked up the ball in touch (or touch-in-goal).[/LAWS]

What is this saying exactly? Am I correct to read that this is stating that a player who is already in touch and picks up a ball that is in motion within the playing area, is not putting it into touch but rather picking it up as if the ball was already in touch? Logically this doesn't seem correct, but then I don't know why the law book doesn't use the same wording as in 19.5 (a) where it ends with : [LAWS]...that player has taken the ball into touch (or touch-in-goal).[/LAWS]

Thanks in advance!

-Jon
 

Dickie E


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Am I correct to read that this is stating that a player who is already in touch and picks up a ball that is in motion within the playing area, is not putting it into touch but rather picking it up as if the ball was already in touch?

Yes, you are. 19.5 in entirety shown below. Please note my highlights.

19.5 PLAYER WITH FOOT IN TOUCH

(a) If a player with one or both feet on or beyond the touch-line (or touch-in-goal line), picks up the ball, which was stationary within the playing area, that player has picked up the ball in the playing area and thereby that player has taken the ball into touch (or touch-in-goal).
(b) If a player with one or both feet on or beyond the touch-line (or touch-in-goal line), picks up the ball, which was in motion within the playing area, that player is deemed to have picked up the ball in touch (or touch-in-goal).
 

jdeagro


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That being the case, what would occur if a player caused 19.5 (b) to occur? A lineout?...and to whom?

Does this ever happen? I feel like the AR or TJ would signal that the player caused the ball to be brought into touch and therefor a lineout would be awarded to the other team?

Thanks,
-Jon
 

Ian_Cook


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That being the case, what would occur if a player caused 19.5 (b) to occur? A lineout?...and to whom?

Does this ever happen? I feel like the AR or TJ would signal that the player caused the ball to be brought into touch and therefor a lineout would be awarded to the other team?

Thanks,
-Jon

Believe it or not, this actually simplifies the touch situation for the AR/TJ, because the alternative would be that the AR would have to determine whether or not the ball crossed the plane of touch, or touched the ground beyond the touchline, before or after you caught it or picked it up. He could very well be unsighted for the situation if you have your back to him.

So, if you are yourself in touch (one or both feet on or over the touchline, and you are deemed to be in touch) and you...

1. ...pick up or catch a ball that is in motion, i.e. rolling along the ground, bouncing or flying through the air, then the ball is in touch and it was put there by the last person who played the ball before you.

2. ...pick up a ball that is stationary, then the ball is in touch and YOU put it there.

This Law keeps things consistent with who put the ball in the 22 --- Laws 19.1 (c) and (e) and who put the ball in in-goal or dead in-goal --- Law 22.9
 

Taff


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... Does this ever happen?
It happens regularly; eg I saw 1 in each of the 2 games I watched over the weekend. In fact, in the Cardiff Blues game, the commentatotor mentioned he didn't like the law. Once you understand it, it isn't a problem. I quite like it, it shows the catcher is really using his noddle.

That being the case, what would occur if a player caused 19.5 (b) to occur? A lineout?...and to whom? I feel like the AR or TJ would signal that the player caused the ball to be brought into touch and therefor a lineout would be awarded to the other team?
As soon as you see a player straddling the touchline, or has one foot on or over the touchline waiting to catch the ball, the bells start ringing that the intention is to "make" the kick go direct to touch. If the player catches the ball you think to yourself "that's a kick direct to touch" even though the ball may not have crossed the plane of touch. After that you just apply normal lineout law eg Was the outside his 22? If yes the LO is back where he kicked it etc.
 
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Davet

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And note - if the ball is rolling inches from and parallel to the touchline, ie not heading into touch, then it is in motion, and a player stood in touch who picks it up is not putting it in touch, so his team would get the throw (assuming kicked by opposition)
 

didds

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what dave means is that the ball merely has to be in motion in any direction. It does not have to be destined for touch.

didds
 

crossref


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what dave means is that the ball merely has to be in motion in any direction. It does not have to be destined for touch.

didds

indeed, who can know for where a bouncing rugby ball is destined?
 

Davet

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Didds - I find coaches are invariably helpful, and indeed keen to point out Law clarifications to the ref at the drop of a hat, wonderfully kind bunch of people...

:)
 

Taff


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This thread has just made me think about something which hadn't crossed my mind before. :chin:

What happens if the catcher (straddling the touchline) doesn't catch the ball, but merely fumbles the thing? The lawbook mentions "catches" but in the case of a kick close to the touchline wouldn't it also apply if it used the word "touches"?

DEFINITION
The ball is in touch when .... it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The player straddling the line is "in touch" so if he wanted the ball to go out on the full, does he even need to catch it? :chin: The ball is not being carried, and if he fumbles the catch it has still "touched" someone "on or beyond the touchline".
 
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OB..


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This thread has just made me think about something which hadn't crossed my mind before. :chin:

What happens if the catcher (straddling the touchline) doesn't catch the ball, but merely fumbles the thing? The lawbook mentions "catches" but in the case of a kick close to the touchline wouldn't it also apply if it used the word "touches"?

DEFINITION
The ball is in touch when .... it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The player straddling the line is "in touch" so if he wanted the ball to go out on the full, does he even need to catch it? :chin: The ball is not being carried, and if he fumbles the catch it has still "touched" someone "on or beyond the touchline".
This occurred in a game recently and the ball went forward from his hands into touch. I raised the question at the next society meeting and it was put to a vote (which I think I reported on here somewhere). 60% said lineout, 40% said scrum. Our local experts (including a panel AR coach) said scrum, so it was put to the RFU Referees department. They said scrum.

Remember that if you are in touch you can knock the ball before it crosses the plane of touch and the ball is NOT deemed to be in touch(final paragraph of the Definitions). It is only in touch if you catch it . Therefore it was a knock-on (which preceded the ball actually going into touch). Scrum to the kicker's team.
 

ddjamo


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This thread has just made me think about something which hadn't crossed my mind before. :chin:

What happens if the catcher (straddling the touchline) doesn't catch the ball, but merely fumbles the thing? The lawbook mentions "catches" but in the case of a kick close to the touchline wouldn't it also apply if it used the word "touches"?

DEFINITION
The ball is in touch when .... it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The player straddling the line is "in touch" so if he wanted the ball to go out on the full, does he even need to catch it? :chin: The ball is not being carried, and if he fumbles the catch it has still "touched" someone "on or beyond the touchline".

scrum if it's a knock on.
 

ddjamo


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This thread has just made me think about something which hadn't crossed my mind before. :chin:

What happens if the catcher (straddling the touchline) doesn't catch the ball, but merely fumbles the thing? The lawbook mentions "catches" but in the case of a kick close to the touchline wouldn't it also apply if it used the word "touches"?

DEFINITION
The ball is in touch when .... it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline.

The player straddling the line is "in touch" so if he wanted the ball to go out on the full, does he even need to catch it? :chin: The ball is not being carried, and if he fumbles the catch it has still "touched" someone "on or beyond the touchline".

scrum if it's a knock on.
 

Simon Thomas


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A similar match incident to OBs was discussed by myself, a L5 referee, his Panel Referee Coach, and the home side coach post-match.

A scrum had been awarded and I supported the referee's decision. After some thought so did the Referee Coach. The team's coach still wouldn't agree (level 3 RFU coach so he has done "the miles").

Glad to see referee department said the same, but a bit concerning that 60% of Glos Society said line-out - I will ask to do the same at our next Society meeting to check our split - you wait 70% will say line out :biggrin:!
 

crossref


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so red player straddling touch (one foot in, one foot out) attempts to catch a moving ball kicked by blue from outside the 22mm

A - he catches it = line out red, no gain in ground
B - he knocks on, ball goes into field of play = scrum blue
C - he knocks on, ball goes out of play = scrum blue
D - he fumbles ball backwards, into field of play = play on (?)
E - he fumbles ball backwards, into touch = lineout blue (?)
 
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Taff


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.... Remember that if you are in touch you can knock the ball before it crosses the plane of touch and the ball is NOT deemed to be in touch(final paragraph of the Definitions). It is only in touch if you catch it.
I think that clinches it for me. Its best to get these straight in your head before they actually happen; if it happened when you were TJ / ARing you would need an instant decision as you just wouldn't have the time to think about it. So
  • If the ball had crossed the plane of touch and gets knocked on - its in touch
  • If the ball had not crossed the plane of touch and gets knocked on - its a scrum
 
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crossref


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plane of touch is hard
firstly, as a referee you are unlikely to be in a position really to tell whether the ball has crossed the plane of touch
and generally it's much more important to look at the player's feet than the flying ball - what you are after is the players feet at the moment he catches it, and from then..
 

Davet

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Taff - technically yes.
Crossref - practically I would go with the position of the feet, if straddling the line unlikely that ball will cross plane of touch. If the back foot is on touchline and the whole body is in field of play - that makes it quite clear. Which means your 5 options all seem good to me.
 
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