Lineout quiz

[crossref]

This is last week's quiz question over at Advantage Refereee

I'll give the link/credit later, with the given answer : but first I am interested to see : what do RR.COM make of it ? especially those who are proponents of the "QTLO"

I FOUGHT THE LAW & THE LAW WON #21:
Team B attacking lineout, 5m from Team A goal line.
Lineout is formed when B8 is walking to the receiver position at the front of the lineout. When he is about 4m from his team mates, he starts running forward towards the lineout, and at 2m from his team mates in the lineout, the thrower throws the ball in, and B8 catches the ball in the lineout and runs through and scores.

Choices given :
- FK to Team A
- Try

At Advantage the punters were split 60/40 on this one

 

[Treadmore]

Try
Receiver is not closer than 2m when line-out starts and is allowed to compete for ball once the line-out starts

 

[tewdric]

I say free kick as the 8 is not part of the lineout and, therefore, is not a player allowed to compete for the ball (29a).

But it's a good question and you could argue it either way.

 

[chbg]

18.16 FK

Unless Team B are the Barbarians.

 

[Treadmore]

I say free kick as the 8 is not part of the lineout and, therefore, is not a player allowed to compete for the ball (29a).

But it's a good question and you could argue it either way.

There is a definition for participating players in a lineout, and it includes the receiver

 

[Treadmore]

18.16 FK

On the basis that the receiver is running, not standing?

 

[tewdric]

That's the crux of it - standing at 2m is now set in stone. Passing through 2m on your run in doesn't count for me.

 

[Treadmore]

That's the crux of it - standing at 2m is now set in stone. Passing through 2m on your run in doesn't count for me.

Once the line-out starts the receiver can compete for the ball (29.a). So it's moving before the throw (running from 4m to 2m) that's the issue for you?

 

[The Fat]

This is last week's quiz question over at Advantage Refereee

I'll give the link/credit later, with the given answer : but first I am interested to see : what do RR.COM make of it ? especially those who are proponents of the "QTLO"



At Advantage the punters were split 60/40 on this one

FK to team A
The lineout is formed
B8 is moving into the receiver’s position and is therefore a participating player I.e not a lineout player
If B8 wants to join the lineout he may do so before the ball is thrown providing a lineout player drops out to tchange places with B8
Once the lineout begins, players in the lineout I.e “Lineout Players” May compete for the ball
The tactic as described means that team B has an extra player in the lineout
This scenario has nothing to do with a QTLO

 

[Treadmore]

FK to team A
The lineout is formed
B8 is moving into the receiver’s position and is therefore a participating player I.e not a lineout player
If B8 wants to join the lineout he may do so before the ball is thrown providing a lineout player drops out to tchange places with B8
Once the lineout begins, players in the lineout I.e “Lineout Players” May compete for the ball
The tactic as described means that team B has an extra player in the lineout
This scenario has nothing to do with a QTLO

The distinction between lineout players and participants seems to be the crux.

Dare I say that in 2017 it was explicit the receiver could join the line-out once the ball was thrown...now the wording is changed

 

[The Fat]

Receivers, thrower and thrower’s opposite have always been “participating players” whilst those in the two lines are “lineout players”. Nothing has changed since 2017.

 

[crossref]

This scenario has nothing to do with a QTLO

In the QTLO thread there was a large (and fierce!) body of opinion that all that is really needed is 2 players from each team and providing you have that then a lineout can take place.
If you argued that position , then your answer to this question must be that we have 2x2 and nothing else matters so Try

Conversely, if you think the precise position and timing of B8 is important you can't be allowing QTLO in a general melee where V8 would be impossible to observe

 

[The Fat]

In the QTLO thread there was a large (and fierce!) body of opinion that all that is really needed is 2 players from each team and providing you have that then a lineout can take place.
If you argued that position , then your answer to this question must be that we have 2x2 and nothing else matters so Try

Conversely, if you think the precise position and timing of B8 is important you can't be allowing QTLO in a general melee where V8 would be impossible to observe

Nope.
In the Advantage Referee scenario, B8 becomes an extra lineout player plain and simple. The two scenarios, this one and a QTLO are completely different.

 

[Treadmore]

Receivers, thrower and thrower’s opposite have always been “participating players” whilst those in the two lines are “lineout players”. Nothing has changed since 2017.

From 2017:
[LAWS]Once the lineout has commenced , the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform
all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Here is Advantage answer (FK)

.This is a tough one for many reasons.
Originally the Law stated that the receiver needs to be at least 2m from the lineout and may not move into the lineout until the lineout has commenced. New Law book states, "If a team elects to have a receiver, the receiver stands between the five-metre and the 15-metre lines, two metres away from their team-mates in the lineout. Each team may have only one receiver. Sanction: Free-kick.
In this example it would appear that the player gained a clear advantage from not being in the correct position, however, we have seen tries allowed recently where players are 2.5m or 3m out and start moving a step before the throw. I would recommend that if the player is in the region of 2m and clearly takes up the position of the receiver, i.e. stops for a moment, and is not within 2m when the ball leaves the hands of the thrower, play on. In this example it would have to be a FK.

https://www.facebook.com/183180615902686/posts/307202156833864/

 

[crossref]

FK to team A

This scenario has nothing to do with a QTLO

This scenario is about whether the lineout is set properly .. who is in the lineout , who is not in it, what are their roles ? and are they standing in the right places when the lineout commences.

 

[tewdric]

Actually, having thought about the comemnts here I believe there are two reasons why the try should not be awarded:

If we regard 8 as a receiver he/she is initially standing in the wrong place - free kick. (If they are not a receiver plain offside - penalty.)

Either way 8 is not a lineout player (defined as one of the players forming the lines) and thus cannot compete for the ball in the lineout.

 

[Arabcheif]

Hmmm I had thought that it did say that the receiver could enter the line. But it doesn't specifically say. However as has been said, it said in 2017 that he/she could. We've been further advised on many other threads that there have been no law changes since then. So I'd suggest there's no issue with B8 on this occasion entering the line to compete. Provided he was in the right place to start with.

It sounds like he may not have been, so on that basis FK. Although in real time in my level, I'd never be able to see that, so I'd prob award the try.

 

[crossref]

What's your answer based on the current laws ?

 

[tewdric]

I think I might raise the receiver joining the line point at the next society meeting - the implication of the 2019 law, by stating that line out players can compete for the ball, is that non-line out players can't - but it doesn't explicitly say so. As Arabchielf has said we were told no new laws when the "simplifications" were made.

Doesn't change my answer to the question though!