Lineout quiz

[Arabcheif]

What's your answer based on the current laws ?

Mine?

He's fine and can enter the line and compete, so no issue with that. Try for me.

 

[tewdric]

To add to potential intrigue does joining a maul (I'm thinking thrower and receiver here) before the maul has passed the mark of touch count as competing for the ball in the lineout?

 

[Jz558]

I'm with Treadmore on this one. Before the re-write of the laws the receiver joining the line-out once the line out had commenced was specifically allowed in law and was something the team I coached employed as a standard line out move. I used to mention it to referees prior to the game and can't remember one who questioned the legality of the move. So I guess now it depends on which side of the fence you reside. If you are in the nothing has changed but the words camp then this tactic is still permitted however if you are in the changing the words changes the law whatever you say then this tactic would not be justifiable. The further away we go from the 2017 law book rewrite the fewer referees will permit the move. Still nothing changed eh?

 

[crossref]

We have to answer these questions using the current Law book, it simply cannot be the case that answering a Law question requires a referee to have access to historic Law books -- documents that aren't even on the WR website..

The Laws in 2019 is what is in the 2019 Law Book.
The contents of the 2017 Law book matter more more than the contents of 2016, 2018 or 1947 Law books


Now, it seems to me there are two Law questions posed in the scenario

1 - can the receiver come into the line and catch the ball?

Answer Yes -
[LAWS]18. 29 Once the lineout has commenced, any player in the lineout may: Compete for possession of the ball.[/LAWS]

That's clear enough

2 - is B8 correctly positioned as a receiver.
Answer No

18.16 If a team elects to have a receiver, the receiver stands between the five-metre and the 15-metre lines, two metres away from their team-mates in the lineout. Each team may have only one receiver. Sanction: Free-kick.

the receiver has to stand, 2m back.
B8 was running in from a distance, and because he caught the ball his moving start was material.

 

[Treadmore]

We have to answer these questions using the current Law book, it simply cannot be the case that answering a Law question requires a referee to have access to historic Law books -- documents that aren't even on the WR website..

The Laws in 2019 is what is in the 2019 Law Book.
The contents of the 2017 Law book matter more more than the contents of 2016, 2018 or 1947 Law books


Now, it seems to me there are two Law questions posed in the scenario

1 - can the receiver come into the line and catch the ball?

Answer Yes -
[LAWS]18. 29 Once the lineout has commenced, any player in the lineout may: Compete for possession of the ball.[/LAWS]

That's clear enough

2 - is B8 correctly positioned as a receiver.
Answer No



the receiver has to stand, 2m back.
B8 was running in from a distance, and because he caught the ball his moving start was material.

I agree we should use 2019 law book CR but:

Re 1 the receiver is a participating player at a lineout, not in a lineout. So I would say 2019 lawbook does not say the receiver can join the line-out once it commences. "At" vs "In"


Re 2 yes laws say "stand" and in OP the receiver wasn't stood...but do we really expect to enforce no movement at all? Until when?

 

[tewdric]

1 - can the receiver come into the line and catch the ball?

Answer Yes -
[LAWS]18. 29 Once the lineout has commenced, any player in the lineout may: Compete for possession of the ball.[/LAWS]

That's clear enough

Except that the receiver does not appear to be regarded as "in the lineout" in the 2019 rulebook - look at 18.27.a and 18.27.d and there is a distinction made.

Also, the definition of a receiver is: "The player in a position to receive the ball if it is knocked or passed back from a lineout" which again implies the receiver isn't "in" the lineout.

There is nothing in the 2019 rules that says the receiver can join the lineout.

So the answer to the question: "Can the receiver come into the line and catch the ball?" Is probably no, although it's the joining issue that I think needs clarification hence my comment upthread about raising it at a society meeting.

 

[Balones]

Seeing as we quite often like to balance on a pin head when it comes to precise meaning of words in the laws, does the 2Ms refer to one foot or two feet away from the line of players? If the receiver’s left foot is 2M from the line and his right foot 2.5M from the line of players can we allow him to move his right foot forward before the ball is thrown in? In such circumstances is he moving before the ball is thrown? If he is than surely the laws must stipulate, to avoid any confusion, that any receiver must stand squarely with two feet parallel to the line of players before the ball is thrown. If he is facing away from the lineout and reverses into the lineout before the ball is thrown is he moving forwards or backwards?
Ouch, that pin hurts.

 

[crossref]

I agree we should use 2019 law book CR but:

Re 1 the receiver is a participating player at a lineout, not in a lineout. So I would say 2019 lawbook does not say the receiver can join the line-out once it commences. "At" vs "In"


Re 2 yes laws say "stand" and in OP the receiver wasn't stood...but do we really expect to enforce no movement at all? Until when?

I don't think the law book properly defines a line out player nor a player in the lineout , and it doesn't use the term participating player, does it ?
So I think we use natural language and the receiver is part of the lineout, a lineout player

As to the moving , I don't think we pay too much attention to that UNLESS moving is taking a running jump and catches the ball, as is the case here

I agree it's worth a qu. to the society though

 

[Balones]

Personally because of the ambiguity in the scenario I would be happy for a referee to reset the lineout without penalising.

 

[Balones]

What I do see quite often is the ball being thrown in when the two lines are set but the receiver is still moving to his/her position. Should we disallow this because the receiver is more than 2M away and moving (running) into position? If we disallow one type of movement why not the other? Is it simply because the ball comes to the receiver rather than the receiver comes to the ball?

 

[Treadmore]

Crossref, in the this case the Definitions in the lawbook are clear (separate for Lineout players and Participating players), I think, and does make the distinction. Usage is consistent with 18.29.

 

[crossref]

Oops. I was looking in wrong place!

 

[chbg]

Personally because of the ambiguity in the scenario I would be happy for a referee to reset the lineout without penalising.

Or the referee would have managed it pre-emptively: I have required a team to clarify if and who is the Receiver when not obvious. Someone like B8 running in would have led me to halt the line-out, well before he had caught the ball.

 

[crossref]

Or the referee would have managed it pre-emptively: I have required a team to clarify if and who is the Receiver when not obvious. Someone like B8 running in would have led me to halt the line-out, well before he had caught the ball.

What if they take it quickly ?

 

[Jz558]

This has been a really interesting thread because it highlights an issue which is not in any way subjective. The 2017 law book outlined a scenario that was permissible (ie the receiver being permitted to move into the lineout once the lineout had commenced). Without this explicit permission no one would ever have devised the tactic whilst expecting it to be allowed. In the re-write of the laws, the removal of this option, whether intentional or not, means that there is now no basis in the laws of the game for the continued use of the tactic. Furthermore the lawbook says that any receiver must STAND 2m from the lineout which also implies he cannot move (either along, towards or back from the line out).

As someone who coached this move and would have previously allowed it as a referee, on reflection I won’t allow it in future.

As a final point, I know this sounds really pedantic in parts, which I genuinely hate but wtf are we supposed to do when presented with this nonsense?

 

[OB..]

Scotland v South Africa 2018 rugbyonslaught.com/footage-scotland-pull-off-perfect-lineout-trick-used-by-all-blacks-in-2011/ (3:48 in the Highlights video).

 

[crossref]

Scotland v South Africa 2018 rugbyonslaught.com/footage-scotland-pull-off-perfect-lineout-trick-used-by-all-blacks-in-2011/ (3:48 in the Highlights video).

Great example

1 he starts from more than 2m back
2 he starts his run before the ball is thrown

 

[chbg]

Great example

1 he starts from more than 2m back
2 he starts his run before the ball is thrown

A very good example of how to do it as correctly as possible. Very different to the picture painted for me by the OP.

1. He was clearly standing in a Receiver's position that was acceptable to the referee and obvious to the opposition.
2. He ran sideways so that he was still 2m from the line-out when the ball was thrown.

- - - Updated - - -

What if they take it quickly ?

Manage it, obviously.

 

[crossref]

Slow them down and set / reset the lineout properly ?
If so, I agree

 

[Arabcheif]

Except that the receiver does not appear to be regarded as "in the lineout" in the 2019 rulebook - look at 18.27.a and 18.27.d and there is a distinction made.

Also, the definition of a receiver is: "The player in a position to receive the ball if it is knocked or passed back from a lineout" which again implies the receiver isn't "in" the lineout.


There is nothing in the 2019 rules that says the receiver can join the lineout.

So the answer to the question: "Can the receiver come into the line and catch the ball?" Is probably no, although it's the joining issue that I think needs clarification hence my comment upthread about raising it at a society meeting.

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I think the main issue for this one is the movement of the receiver. 18.27 covers the involvement of the thrower, not the receiver
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Once the lineout has commenced, the thrower and the thrower’s immediate opponent may......
[/FONT]18.27 doesn't apply to the receiver. I've no issue with the receiver entering the line to get the ball provided he starts from 2m away. The Law also doesn't state he needs to be still, so unless he's closing his 2m gap I'm allowing him to move along the line of the line out (sidestepping). Once the ball is thrown, he can then come in.

So in the scenario from the OP, technically FK as B8 wasn't in the correct position, but in reality I'd prob not see that - so I give the try. Can't call what I don't see. With ARs and TMOs then it would be different. But I don't have any of that. I'm focusing on offsides and straight throws lol