London Welsh v London Irish

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winchesterref


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Letter of the law red card I think, in real time. Slow mo possibly lands on his upper back? Looked marginal and the officials judged it dangerous and a tip so should be no complaints. Brian Smith is usually moaning about decisions.
 
Chogan

Chogan


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It's beyond close. But credit to JPD. If you go frame by frame Hala'ufia can be seen lifting his left arm which causes the welsh player to pivot around his shoulder.
The issue now is that it's a very soft RC when so many other things happen on the field that are worthy of the same but nothing happens. The more of this we see from the top, the braver we can all become.
 
Simon Thomas

Simon Thomas


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RC tackle in contravention of IRB guidelines imho. I do have some sympathy for Brian Smith and the comments he makes have some merit. But I disagree that it was a legal tackle - Seb went thru horizontal and landed on his shoulders with his legs way above.

JP had no choice, under the current IRB /RFU protocols, so well done for calling it as he did.

Referees implement the Laws, guidelines, etc, the IRB and RFU make them.
 
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Shelflife


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I dont think that is a red card, I think he hits him so hard and fast that he literally takes the legs from under him and then goes to ground.For me at no point does he raise the players legs above the hips.

It looks bad, but its a text book tackle,in low drive back and brings the player to the ground.
 
Simon Thomas

Simon Thomas


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Shelflife said:
I dont think that is a red card, I think he hits him so hard and fast that he literally takes the legs from under him and then goes to ground.For me at no point does he raise the players legs above the hips.

It looks bad, but its a text book tackle,in low drive back and brings the player to the ground.
Click to expand...

Shelfife - Seb Jewell is upside down and vertical ! please watch it in slo-mo and freeze frame.
 
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Shelflife


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Just to clarify,i can well understand where JP is coming from and its easy to justify a card in this instance, as much as I hate the report system in RL as i believe that it allows the refs to cop out of a correct decision it could have merit in an instance like this.
 
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Robert Burns

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If we follow the stages that Ian created, it's not a tip tackle.

He is not stationary.
He does not lift the player
He does not twist the player
The players legs do go past the horizontal (through the spped and strength of the hit).
The Player does land on his back/nexk, but not because the tackler had dropped or driven him.

I believe that was a hard and strong dump tackle, it could have been called as high, but that's all IMHO.

Red Card Harsh, Yellow Card would have been harsh too IMHO, Penalty justified if for high.

I can see why it looked like it, and why at one look the officials thought it might be, but where they DO have the ability to ask the TMO, as the do in the AP, perhaps a check would have been worth while:

Ref to TMO: "We believe we have a tip tackle and it's a Red Card, can you confirm if that's correct"

I can see it being appealed, and possibly overturned.
 
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Guyseep


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There was a great article about the dynamics of a tip tackle on this site and it pointed out a few interesting things about the mechanics of how a spear tackle occurs.

My concern and confusion is this: If the tackler lifts a ball carrier off his feet he must put him down safely. It seems that once the player is past horizontal, the tackler is at the point of no return. It would take a feat of extreme strength to right the player once they go past horizontal. I think there needs to be a more leeway in carding for tip tackles. There needs to be a distinction between a tackle where the player is lifted and tipped, and one where he is lifted tipped and driven into the ground. I think thats where the difference between a yellow and red card lies.

Also the common wisdom is that once the ball carrier is lifted past horizontal we enter into the domain of a tip tackle, such that the player lands on their head or upper back. Usually this happens with the ball carrier being lifted and turned to his side past the horizontal. What if a tackler drive THROUGH the player in a hard tackle such that the ball carrier is driven off his feet, backwards and past horizontal and then lands on his upper back - Is this a tip tackle?
 
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Taff


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Shelflife said:
I dont think that is a red card, I think he hits him so hard and fast that he literally takes the legs from under him and then goes to ground.For me at no point does he raise the players legs above the hips. It looks bad, but its a text book tackle,in low drive back and brings the player to the ground.
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Seems fair to me.

The BC wasn't "lifted" past the horizontal, he was tackled below the shoulders (ie legally) .... but his legs carried on going. A :norc: seems harsh to me, and judging by the handshakes from the opponents I assume they thought so too. When you only get a split second to make a decision, I can see why JP Doyle gave a RC, but I suppose that's the risk you take if you tackle a player that hard.

If that had happened in a game I was reffing (and my superhuman ability allowed me to see it in instant slo-mo) I would have whistled for a "safety stop" and restarted with a scrum to London Welsh.
 
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R

Robert Burns

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Remember this:


Certainly dangerous for Shane Williams, but never a dangerous tackle, just hard and unfortunate timing.

Luckily Shane Williams was fine.
 
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OB..


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It was not a classic tip tackle because there was no lift. However it did look high, and I am concerned about the position of the tacklers head. It was not a Fred Howard.
 
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Guyseep


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Robert Burns said:
Certainly dangerous for Shane Williams, but never a dangerous tackle, just hard and unfortunate timing.



Luckily Shane Williams was fine.
Click to expand...

Some may argue, that perhaps Polota-Nau charged in with his shoulder only. It's debatable.
 
Chogan

Chogan


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Taff said:
Seems fair to me.

The BC wasn't "lifted" past the horizontal, he was tackled below the shoulders (ie legally) .... but his legs carried on going. A :norc: seems harsh to me, and judging by the handshakes from the opponents I assume they thought so too.
Click to expand...
His legs carried on going and were assisted with an upward lift from Hala'ufia's left arm tipping the BC passed the horizontal.
The handshakes are probably down to most players, like most supporters feeling that RC's for dangerous tackles of this nature are disproportionate to the rest of the game coupled with the fact that nearly everyone can see that there was no intent to injure.
However, as soon as it happened the Welsh player that arrived to the right of the ruck looked straight at JPD and then pointed to Hala'ufia.

If that had happened in a game I was reffing (and my superhuman ability allowed me to see it in instant slo-mo) I would have whistled for a "safety stop" and restarted with a scrum to London Welsh.
Click to expand...
Same, but I'm not going to claim any superhuman abilities. I had to watch the thing nearly 20 times before making a decision.
 
T

Taff


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Chogan said:
.... Same, but I'm not going to claim any superhuman abilities. I had to watch the thing nearly 20 times before making a decision.
Click to expand...
OK. OK ... I admit I haven't got any superhuman abilities and just watched it 5 times in slo-mo. :biggrin:

It's a luxury JP Doyle didn't have. :frown:
 
R

Robert Burns

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I agree his left arm picks the players legs as he drives through, but is that not how players are taught to tackle? I believe the reason he goes over is because his upper body is too high in the hit, had he got his shoulder lower it would have been a cracking tackle.

I still believe cards are harsh here, but I have no issue with the ref making the call, in fact I applaud JP for having the balls to make the decision on such a close call.

It's nice and refreshing to be discussing a decision that is slightly more harsh, than a decision where it appears a referee has clearly avoided giving an obvious red.
 
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TheBFG


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I have one thing to say about that tackle...................

Player reaction!
 
C

crossref


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TheBFG said:
I have one thing to say about that tackle...................

Player reaction!
Click to expand...

they didn't react much to the tackle, but then neither did they protest much about the RC.
 
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