[Law] MARK - Is this a valid mark ?

[didds]

There aren't many changes from 2018 to 2019 .. tjere is a thread in the Laws forum that lists them (do keep up , didds!)

cheers for that CR - as for keeping up why do you think I am a member here? ;-)

Being semi serious I get mkore sense (!!!) from this one site than a myriad of NGB, WR and meejah sites - all power to you guys elbows.

didds

 

[Decorily]

In the OP the player was effectively in possession of the ball and presumably tackleable for the second that the ball was not in his hands. (Between losing it forward and regathering it)
If he is in possession then I would say he has made a clean catch and therefore award the FK.

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

well, its not a knock on cos ball hasn't hit ground or another player. So it's just a fumble (aka an unclean catch).

Hmm... We could be back to the interpretation of the Boolean logic in this definition
[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. [/LAWS]

One could parse that many ways.
1) When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
OR when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm,
OR [ when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, AND the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. ]

or...

2) [ When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
OR when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm,
OR when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, ]
AND
[ the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it. ]

I have seen both interpretations but (2) is the one I use.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

2017[LAWS]18 Definition The player must make a clean catch direct from an opponent's kick[/LAWS]
2018[LAWS]17.1 (b) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Catch a ball that has reached the plane of the 22-metre line directly from an opponent’s kick before it touches the ground or another player[/FONT][/LAWS]
The law appears to have changed so that the referee no longer needs to decide if it was a "clean" catch.

The bit about touching a post first was in the 2017 law as well, where it clearly meant that touching a post did not make the catch indirect.

That bit is interesting. In 2018 there was no reference to the ball reaching the plane. of the 22.

With regard to the ball going from the "catcher" onto a post and back, I would say that that nulifies the catch and it becomes a Knock on. Would he have regatherd had it not hit the post? I have not thought about this before and will chat in Society mut that is my initial thought.

 

[crossref]

Here's Law 17 from the Law Book (the current Law Book, FFS, the 2019 Law Book! )

[LAWS]
17 Mark
PRINCIPLE
A means of stopping play within a player’s own 22 by directly catching an opponent’s kick.

CLAIMING A MARK

To claim a mark, a player must:

Have at least one foot on or behind their own 22-metre line when catching the ball or when landing having caught it in the air; and
Catch a ball that has reached the plane of the 22-metre line directly from an opponent’s kick before it touches the ground or another player; and

Simultaneously call “mark”.

A player may claim a mark even if the ball hits a goal post or crossbar before being caught.

When a mark is called correctly, the referee immediately stops the game and awards a free-kick to the team in possession.
A mark may not be claimed from a kick-off or a restart kick after a score.[/LAWS]

1 - The plane is still mentioned and important
2 - No need for the catch to be 'clean' (whatever that used to mean, back in the day)
3 - Anyone spot the error in the Law? Clue1 : it's in the very first sentence of Law 17, and contradiscted in the last sentence

[LAWS]Place of the mark Location of free-kick
Within the 22 At the place of the mark but at least five metres from the goal line, in line with the place of the mark.
Within the in-goal On the five-metre line in line with the place of the mark.[/LAWS]

 

[Phil E]

I am not convinced that a bobbled catch can now claim a Mark, but have asked the question of laws@RFU.com
Let's see what they say in reply?

 

[Taff]

... With regard to the ball going from the "catcher" onto a post and back, I would say that that nulifies the catch and it becomes a Knock on. Would he have regatherd had it not hit the post?

I think the reference to the posts means if the ball rebounds off the post and the catcher claims a mark, he can still have it.

 

[Dickie E]

I am not convinced that a bobbled catch can now claim a Mark, but have asked the question of laws@RFU.com
Let's see what they say in reply?

if they come back and say the bobbled catch is not a mark, then the wording of the whole of the 2019 lawbook will be in doubt.

 

[didds]

if they come back and say the bobbled catch is not a mark, then the wording of the whole of the 2019 lawbook will be in doubt.

Go to jail.
Do not collect £200

 

[Phil E]

if they come back and say the bobbled catch is not a mark, then the wording of the whole of the 2019 lawbook will be in doubt.

It could be the end of civilisation as we know it!

 

[crossref]

if they come back and say the bobbled catch is not a mark, then the wording of the whole of the 2019 lawbook will be in doubt.

that or laws@rfu.com

 

[Marc Wakeham]

if they come back and say the bobbled catch is not a mark, then the wording of the whole of the 2019 lawbook will be in doubt.

I'm not doubtig a mark is possible if the ball comes off the posts and is either caught cleanly or bobbled (although bobbled being "ok" may be poor wording.) . I susspect if the ball bobbls into a post after the initial stage of the catch means a Knock on has taken place. Just as it would if it "bobbled " into another player.

 

[Pinky]

I'm not doubtig a mark is possible if the ball comes off the posts and is either caught cleanly or bobbled (although bobbled being "ok" may be poor wording.) . I susspect if the ball bobbls into a post after the initial stage of the catch means a Knock on has taken place. Just as it would if it "bobbled " into another player.

But you might bobble it backwards into a post?

 

[crossref]

how many balls can bobble on a post tip?

 

[OB..]

I'm not doubtig a mark is possible if the ball comes off the posts and is either caught cleanly or bobbled (although bobbled being "ok" may be poor wording.) . I susspect if the ball bobbls into a post after the initial stage of the catch means a Knock on has taken place. Just as it would if it "bobbled " into another player.

Is there any justification for treating a post as another player or the ground?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I think there is case to do so.

The player has fumbled the bal. Question would he have caught it but for it bouncing back off the post?

 

[crossref]

I'd say the posts are part of the game -- when a PK hits a posts and bounces back we don't award a 22m DO on the grounds that is what would have happened if it hadn't hit the post.

a bobble off the posts -- play on with a smile, give you that one, don't do it again !

reasons not to blow the whistle etc

 

[L'irlandais]

how many balls can bobble on a post tip?

Or angels on a pinhead?

[LAWS]21.16
If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post..[/LAWS]
What if the ball bobbles back off the corner flat post? Still okay for calling a Mark! ?

 

[Dickie E]

Or angels on a pinhead?

[LAWS]21.16
If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post..[/LAWS]
What if the ball bobbles back off the corner flat post? Still okay for calling a Mark! ?

Funny you should ask that, happened to me just the other ....

Only joking

 

[Decorily]

Or angels on a pinhead?

[LAWS]21.16
If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post..[/LAWS]
What if the ball bobbles back off the corner flat post? Still okay for calling a Mark! ?

Well if it would be good enough to award a try from then I would also award the mark!