Matching Numbers?

[jdeagro]

So I know this is a really elementary question (I'm just double checking myself), but when the team throwing in at the lineout sets the maximum numbers in their lineout, the thrower is not included in that number for the opposing team to match, correct?

I.e: Team A is throwing in at the lineout and runs a "full" lineout in which 7 of their forwards form their line at the lineout, and their remaining forward is the thrower. Now, team B must not exceed 7 players in their line in the lineout. Is this correct?

 

[smeagol]

The numbers refer to the number of players between the 5m and 15m lines.

The thrower is matched by the opposing hooker, who must stand within the 5m line.

 

[Davet]

Smeagol - yes

And if the throwers choose not to have a reciever?

 

[Dixie]

I.e: Team A is throwing in at the lineout and runs a "full" lineout in which 7 of their forwards form their line at the lineout, and their remaining forward is the thrower. Now, team B must not exceed 7 players in their line in the lineout. Is this correct?

You are correct. A minor point - be aware that the normal terminology of a "full" lineout of 7 does not mean that a team can't put in 8 or more. The maximum number of lineout players a team may put up is 14.

 

[Davet]

The maximum number of lineout players a team may put up is 14.

True- though it helps if they are all good friends.

 

[jdeagro]

You are correct. A minor point - be aware that the normal terminology of a "full" lineout of 7 does not mean that a team can't put in 8 or more. The maximum number of lineout players a team may put up is 14.

Yeah, good point. That's why I put quotes around the word full. Technically a full lineout would consist of all 14 players on a team who aren't the thrower.

Thanks for all the responses.

I had to check my sanity, because I was watching some recent game film of a D1 match, and I noticed one team would always run all 8 of their forwards in the line at the lineout when they were defending. They would have two lifting pods, and 2 "last" men at the back. I believe they had their scrum half in position at the hooker channel. With a top notch official, I'm surprised they got away with it every time (about 10 lineouts). I believe it wasn't as evident without counting because the other team doesn't pre-form their lifting pods, they just have a loose line of players and they make the pods on the fly, so it appeared that their were equal players from both sides.

 

[pwhaling]

Remember in the US the receiver doesn't count as part of the lineout numbers and they can join the lineout before the ball is thrown.

 

[Phil E]

Remember in the US the receiver doesn't count as part of the lineout numbers and they can join the lineout before the ball is thrown.

I am not allowed to say anything, so I will just fume silently

 

[ddjamo]

Remember in the US the receiver doesn't count as part of the lineout numbers and they can join the lineout before the ball is thrown.

I just read the 2013 GMG and the laws committee's letter and I don't see this anywhere. also, it's in law that participating players may change positions prior to the throw.

 

[ddjamo]

LINEOUT
A. Formation
1. The defending team must have a player in the 5m area - if they do not, the
referee will instruct them to do so before continuing - this player may not
support a jumper in the lineout, and must be 2m from the line-of-touch and
2m from the five-meter line until the lineout commences.
2. If a team elects to have a player in the receiver (scrumhalf) position, the
receiver must be 2m from the lineout at the moment of the throw. This player
may move into the lineout prior to the throw.
3. The team that is to throw the ball into the lineout determines the maximum
number of players in the lineout. Referees should manage this rather than
penalize, unless it continues to be an issue.
NOTE: Many aspects of lineout infringements, i.e. formation, closing the gap, ball
not traveling 5m, early jump, etc. can be managed by referees by resetting rather
than penalizing, unless the infringement substantially benefits the offending team,
or is continually repeated. FK
B. Support & Obstruction
1. The immediate players supporting the jumper may NOT position themselves
in front of the jumper, obstructing the opposition. PK
C. Quick Throw-In
1. Referees are to be more aware of quick throw-ins, within law, and that the
throw does not have to be straight, but may not be forward, and has to travel
5m. The quick throw-in can be taken between the line-of-touch touch and the
player’s goal line.
a. Ball not thrown 5m = opponents’ option scrum or lineout
b. Ball prevented from traveling 5m or played before going 5m. FK
2. Players who hold onto the ball, or throw the ball away, when in touch, to
prevent a quick throw-in should be penalized, on the line of touch, 15m line.
This should not be tolerated. PK
D. Lineout Start & End
1. Once the lineout has started, referees are to raise one arm to indicate that
the lineout is in progress, and players who are not part of the lineout need to
remain 10m from the line of touch. Only when the lineout is over should the
referee lower their arm.
LINEOUT

2. Players that are in the lineout have to remain between the line-of-touch
and the 10m backline offside line, and between the 5m and 15m lines until
the lineout is over. Players that cross the 15m line prior to the lineout being
over, attackers to receive the ball or defenders, should be penalized. If the
infringement is not material the referee should manage and talk to the players
rather than penalizing.
E. No Maul
1. If defenders decide not to engage to form a maul at the lineout, referees
should communicate to the team in possession to get the ball out, rather than
penalize for obstruction.
F. SACKING
1. If the ball carrier in the lineout has both feet on the ground, an opposition
player may pull the ball carrier to the ground. If they attempt this after a maul
is formed it should be judged as collapsing the maul.
G. Knock-on or Throw Forward THAT GOES INTO TOUCH
1. If the ball is knocked-on or thrown forward into touch, the non-offending team
may choose the lineout (where it crossed the touch line) or a scrum (where
the throw-forward/knock-on occurred). If they take a quick throw-in, they have
made their choice. NOTE This change is not applicable to a knock-on or
throw-forward that goes into touch-in-goal (or across the dead ball line).
H. PENALTY KICK OR FREE KICK AWARDED AT A LINEout
1. If a team that is awarded a penalty/free kick at a lineout, they may choose to
have a lineout instead of the kick. They may also choose a scrum.
Always be aware of a quick throw-in - know your law. Communicate and manage early what
is expected at the lineout - start at the front: numbers, gap, non-throwing hooker in position,
backlines 10m, no early jumping, receiver 2m from the lineout, immediate formation with
no delay, no dummy throw - keep the player throwing in, in your vision. There is no need to
continuously talk to prevent disorder at the lineout, throughout the game. Keep the backlines
and players in the lineout onside for the duration of the lineout.

 

[ddjamo]

Attached is Ruling 9 from the IRB on Lineouts. Please disseminate to teams, Local Unions and referees. I have copied my best list of LRO Chairs and contacts. If there are names on there that should be removed or replaced with someone else, please tell me.

This Ruling needs a few comments that should be sent along with the actual text of the Ruling. The question was

"Does Law 19.8 (i) apply Law 19.11 Exception 2?"

The answer was:

"The provisions of Law 19.8 (i) do apply to Exception 2 in Law 19.11 which means that a receiver cannot run into a gap in the lineout until the ball has left the hands of the player throwing in."

While this may seem fairly straightforward, we need to remember a couple of other points and recognize that both the question and the answer are quite narrow and only apply at a very specific moment in time - when the ball leaves the hand of the thrower.

As was made clear in Ruling 4/2004 (part 2) and Ruling 7/2004, and as now incorporated in Law 19.8 (k), prior to the throw participating players (including the person in the receiver position) may change places. "Who the receiver actually is, cannot finally be determined until the very moment that the ball is thrown in."
From the definitions in Law 19, either team may have a receiver, but are not required to have one.


So during the period before the throw, while the participating players are moving around, it is not yet determined who is the receiver. And if the throwing team chooses to insert the player who had been looking like the receiver BEFORE the ball is thrown, that is fine. They can drop someone else to the receiver slot or not, as they choose.

All this Ruling says is that a player cannot be in transit between the line itself and the receiver position (two meters back) at the moment of the throw. [And there are a lot more important things to worry about at the lineout. I suggest that referees not apply this too pedantically.]

Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

 

[ddjamo]

there you go...I'm appointed out of town and won't be near a computer - leaving in a few hours - so have fun chewing on this. maybe the DBL thing will wear off a bit.

gotta keep the heavy breathers with something to breathe about...

 

[Phil E]

How come ddjamo only has one ball? :holysheep:

 

[ddjamo]

I think england has "oneball"

 

[pwhaling]

So during the period before the throw, while the participating players are moving around, it is not yet determined who is the receiver. And if the throwing team chooses to insert the player who had been looking like the receiver BEFORE the ball is thrown, that is fine. They can drop someone else to the receiver slot or not, as they choose.

All this Ruling says is that a player cannot be in transit between the line itself and the receiver position (two meters back) at the moment of the throw. [And there are a lot more important things to worry about at the lineout. I suggest that referees not apply this too pedantically.]

This is what I always called, as long as someone dropped back to the receiver's position before the ball was thrown all was good. However, I was sure that I read somewhere in the USAR paper work that there was no requirement to replace the receiver. (This drove me nuts, I'm glad I can go back to replacing the receiver).

Thanks

 

[TheBFG]

SH or not, you have to match numbers (or less) FK every LO if they had 8v7 end of! US rules or not that bit is black and white!

 

[TheBFG]

This is what I always called, as long as someone dropped back to the receiver's position before the ball was thrown all was good. However, I was sure that I read somewhere in the USAR paper work that there was no requirement to replace the receiver. (This drove me nuts, I'm glad I can go back to replacing the receiver).

Thanks

:deadhorse: i think we've been here before :chin:

 

[pwhaling]

Smeagol - yes

And if the throwers choose not to have a reciever?

What's the answer to this one? When counting lineout numbers, I never counted the receiver as part of lineout numbers:
i.e. 5 lineout players + receiver=5 man line.

So, can the non throwing team have a receiver if the throwing team doesn't (my vote is yes)?

 

[Davet]

This is what I always thought (and called), but I was sure that I read somewhere that USAR didn't require a person to drop out of the line to replace the receiver

you may have read it here:

As was made clear in Ruling 4/2004 (part 2) and Ruling 7/2004, and as now incorporated in Law 19.8 (k), prior to the throw participating players (including the person in the receiver position) may change places. "Who the receiver actually is, cannot finally be determined until the very moment that the ball is thrown in."
From the definitions in Law 19, either team may have a receiver, but are not required to have one.

So during the period before the throw, while the participating players are moving around, it is not yet determined who is the receiver. And if the throwing team chooses to insert the player who had been looking like the receiver BEFORE the ball is thrown, that is fine. They can drop someone else to the receiver slot or not, as they choose.

In this case I actually think that USAR has it right, and the iRB are wrong... sadly the iRB run the game, and even though they clearly don't understand what their own Laws actually say, their word is, not to put too fine a point on it, Law.

 

[Dixie]

So, can the non throwing team have a receiver if the throwing team doesn't (my vote is yes)?

Mine too. Five v five deals with lineout players, not lineout participants. As long as those lineout players match, it matters not whether one side has a receiver but the other doesn't