McCaw's Trick are not that hard to spot!

[AiseaT39]

I was speaking about the higher level matches especially the international where some players cheat a lot and get away with it. These levels have international ARs with microphones.

At our very low level of competition here in the islands, we only use certified ARs. We have the luxury of having our own Educator here to train the referees. We use a 3 MO team and the lead & trail method to manage the match at all our leagues games including men, women, & all the youth games.

I have been to Canada, and all over the USA as well as Australia & NZ. They only have the trained ARs & TJs when it is a very important game at the lower level matches.

 

[Bryan]

Agreed on all points, apart from the unofficial AR; I'm only speaking about the appointed ones! The poor guy that drew the bad straw for his team to run touch only has to stick the flag up; there's little "management" from me apart from "Thanks; I'll buy your first one in the bar after the game!".

And I wonder why that approach does not surprise me...

Hey now, I'm not sure if that's a slight against my refereeing inabilities or my treatment as unappointed ARs as poor buggers that got the shaft, but typically buying a fella a beer in exchange for wavin' a flag for 80 minutes is a fair deal in my book!

It's not like anyone volunteer's to run touch, so there has to be some carrot with the stick! :horse:

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Hey now, I'm not sure if that's a slight against my refereeing inabilities or my treatment as unappointed ARs as poor buggers that got the shaft, but typically buying a fella a beer in exchange for wavin' a flag for 80 minutes is a fair deal in my book!

It's not like anyone volunteer's to run touch, so there has to be some carrot with the stick! :horse:

Have seen too many refs with over inflated egos telling the AR "Just wave the flag when it is in touch and leave the rest to me."

A lot of junior clubs here, or lower teams in bigger clubs, have somebody who goes around with the team week in and week out running the line. They can be ex players or even ex refs (don't it myself when watching son playing) who may just be able to assist a ref who is prepared to have a little chat before the game.

Advice I give to grass roots ref is to avoid making assumptions - have a chat with TJ before the game - but of course don't believe everything you are told !!

 

[Account Deleted]

Hawaii level 2 = Magner's League:biggrin::wales:

That says it all!

 

[Account Deleted]

Since I evaluate my own perfomance...I give myself a very high grade just to satisfy the question posted by the Wales referee.

Have you learnt anything from my inputs here or you're too far up there that we don't even exist?

What kind of stupid question is that anyways? Next thing you will be telling us you're superior since you're a doctor or judge or because you're from Wales, NZ, or England.

I am glad that the Rugby Law Book is much smaller and less complicated than my dog grooming text book.

You have a very high opinion of your ability,and the "poor standard"of the elite guys. I completely understand my position at the bottom of the food chain. I've learned little, of value, from you opinionated contributions.

Try to remember; ALL players cheat, not just RM.

 

[Bryan]

Have seen too many refs with over inflated egos telling the AR "Just wave the flag when it is in touch and leave the rest to me."

A lot of junior clubs here, or lower teams in bigger clubs, have somebody who goes around with the team week in and week out running the line. They can be ex players or even ex refs (don't it myself when watching son playing) who may just be able to assist a ref who is prepared to have a little chat before the game.

Advice I give to grass roots ref is to avoid making assumptions - have a chat with TJ before the game - but of course don't believe everything you are told !!

My personal/general-stance:
Have a chat before the game to thank them for helping out - yes.
Listen to an unappointed AR for anything beyond Touch / TiG - no.

I dont see this as being an egotistical prick.

Statements like this:

And I wonder why that approach does not surprise me...

imply you think I'm some bigheaded, self-loving douche. Let me know if that's really where you're going with this.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

My personal/general-stance:
Have a chat before the game to thank them for helping out - yes.
Listen to an unappointed AR for anything beyond Touch / TiG - no.

I dont see this as being an egotistical prick.

Statements like this:



imply you think I'm some bigheaded, self-loving douche. Let me know if that's really where you're going with this.

Me, I'm not going anywhere - and not sure where you are coming from as Grade D not on my charts so perhaps clarification would help there?

If you adopted your approach in a Level 5 game here (highest without appointed ARs) you would not only lay your self open to being set up something chronic but would have your assessor condemning you to L6 rather rapidly. I have even seen it happen at L6.

Indeed we have already seen on another thread the ignorance of referees not aware of all the AR duties in the Law book - duties which they might rightfully expect to carry out.

Whether you are a self loving douche is of no concern to me whatsoever, and if you are then I am sure it will not bother you either...

 

[AiseaT39]

You have a very high opinion of your ability,and the "poor standard"of the elite guys. I completely understand my position at the bottom of the food chain. I've learned little, of value, from you opinionated contributions.

Try to remember; ALL players cheat, not just RM.

I am looking at the ones that are obvious and change the spirit and the outcome of the game especially at the professional level.

Have you offered any solution? Even you say that all players cheat which I don't agree with you...what do you do about it? How good are you?

Are you suggesting that we just ignore it since "...all players cheat?" Is this how good you're?

 

[Bryan]

Me, I'm not going anywhere - and not sure where you are coming from as Grade D not on my charts so perhaps clarification would help there?

I'm not turning this into a pissing contest. I'm disagreeing with you on the approach with unappointed ARs; I see your point, I just dont operate that way.

 

[4eyesbetter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps

I think you two are actually agreeing with each other, except you don't realise it. The problem is in terminology.

As I read this, Bryan is using the term "unappointed AR" to refer to what I understand you lot still call a Touch Judge; he's the bloke that appears from somewhere when you rock up to Bagford Vipers v Old Rottinghamians and ask if there's anyone to run touch for you. He's not a referee, so he gives you touch and kicks at goal and you may even overrule him if he makes a bollocks of it.

Now, Mike reads that term, completely misses the "unappointed" part, and zeroes in only on the "AR" part, so he starts talking about the other kind of flag-waver, the one who's a referee that's been independently appointed. He then starts talking about referees who fail to use such people properly, and then goes off on a tangent about how the guy at Bagford might actually be able to help you with other things, Bryan picks up on the ego thing, and now you're on the point of flaming each other...

edit: unless Mike genuninely is suggesting using the chap from Bagford to give you something other than touch and kicks, in which case I think it says quite a lot about his approach that it only just entered my head 5 seconds ago that anyone could work like that...

 

[ddjamo]

bryan should be "C" fairly soon and his advice will carry more weight. "D" in canada is like level 12 over there mike...cut him some slack...we don't want to scare him off until he has had a chance to really get into it....

 

[AiseaT39]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJQwQpsq5Ek

I want to learn from the Wales referee abou this situation here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zIfUaDAs6c&feature=related

What is wrong with this lineout?

 

[Account Deleted]

1; Both back rows break early. OH sorry it was only RM.Silly me!

2; McCaw's illegal.

And your point is?

 

[Mike Whittaker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps

edit: unless Mike genuninely is suggesting using the chap from Bagford to give you something other than touch and kicks, in which case I think it says quite a lot about his approach that it only just entered my head 5 seconds ago that anyone could work like that...

If Bagford are L5 or below then they will almost certainly be using unappointed ARs unless it is a cup match or similar. Only the Societies can appoint.

And indeed I am suggesting that the AR may be able to offer something else as well as feeling he is part of the team of 3.

 

[Account Deleted]

I am looking at the ones that are obvious and change the spirit and the outcome of the game especially at the professional level.

Have you offered any solution? Even you say that all players cheat which I don't agree with you...what do you do about it? How good are you?

Are you suggesting that we just ignore it since "...all players cheat?" Is this how good you're?

What you don't do, is referee ONE player. You look for the clear and obvious. NO you don't ignore it.

You'll learn from this site , if you will listen, to FAR better referees than me. You also might find it to better to open your questions with a less "aggressive" stance. You clearly have an agenda. That is sad.

 

[AiseaT39]

1; Both back rows break early. OH sorry it was only RM.Silly me!

2; McCaw's illegal.

And your point is?

There is another video too. I have to find some video to support my report to satisfy your investigative energy. Would you come down to my level so we can have a discussion? It is very hard for anyone to make it up there to have a conversation with you...it's too dark & dull up there.

What you don't do, is referee ONE player. You look for the clear and obvious. NO you don't ignore it.

You'll learn from this site , if you will listen, to FAR better referees than me. You also might find it to better to open your questions with a less "aggressive" stance. You clearly have an agenda. That is sad.

It seems to me that you have refereed for many years. I will be surprised that you haven't come across a few players from different clubs who have a habit of knowingly infringing the laws & spirit of the game thus diadvantage and/or put the opponent in an unsafe and unfair situation.

I won't have to watch for one player. As a team of 3 using the lead & trail method, I will instruct the ARs to look for certain things to make sure players are safe and nobody gets away with illegal tactics.

I am willing to learn if you offer anything worth learning. I won't listen to you if you put too much energy trying to prove superiority without proof!

 

[Dixie]

If Bagford are L5 or below then they will almost certainly be using unappointed ARs unless it is a cup match or similar. Only the Societies can appoint.

And indeed I am suggesting that the AR may be able to offer something else as well as feeling he is part of the team of 3.

Firstly Mike, Bryan's refusal to blow his own trumpet and enter into a pissing contest has the unfortunate consequence of leaving you in the dark as to Bryan's status as perhaps the biggest beast in this particular jungle, with the trivia of L.5 being no more than a distant glimmer of light in his rear-view mirror. This from the iRB website:

Twelve match officials, including two from Russia, have been named in the match official panel for the IRB Junior World Rugby Trophy 2010 to be held in Moscow from May 18-30.

The panel selected for the key international age grade tournament comprises a blend of match officials from 11 Member Unions with international experience coming in the form of Canada's Bryan Arciero, who was an assistant referee for the USA v Uruguay Rugby World Cup Qualifier in November, and Japan's Akihisa Aso, an official at last year's IRB Junior World Championship and now on the IRB Sevens World Series panel.

So - let's address the substantive issue. Firstly, I know you know there's no such thing as an unappointed AR; you are either appointed (in which case you are an AR) or you are unappointed (in which case you are a TJ). This is a hugely important distinction, as it has direct relevance to the application of Law 6, the definitions of which are remarkably clear given that they emanate from the iRB:

[LAWS]A touch judge may be appointed by a match organiser or a team involved in a match and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal and the success or otherwise of kicks at goal.

An assistant referee may be appointed by a match organiser and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal, the success or otherwise of kicks at goal and indicating foul play. An assistant referee will also provide assistance to the referee in the performance of any of the referee’s duties as directed by the referee.[/LAWS]

I'm fascinated in your view, as an assessor, that a relatively senior middle-ranking ref would be marked down in RFU-land for applying this provision accurately. I found this so surprising (as have others on here) that I took the time to check the RFU regulations to see where this oddity was formalised. I found this in 12.1.1(d):

[LAWS]At level 5 and below (and for avoidance of doubt including Intermediate Cup, Senior Vase & Junior Vase) Law 6 shall apply and Assistant Referees may report incidents of foul play and misconduct to the Referee only where:

(i) the RFU, the home Club’s Referees Society or the Federation of Referees Societies has appointed Assistant Referees (in accordance with 12.1.1(c) above); or

(ii) the two clubs have specifically agreed with the appointment and the application of Law 6 prior to the match.[/LAWS]

I am at a loss to square this with what you appear to give as the official L.5 assessors' stance, which if I've understood it correctly is that where a club rocks up with a chap who regularly runs the line, does his job diligently and fairly and shows no sign of favouring his own side, that fellow should be treated as part of the To3. It's not clear whether you are advocating allowing him to assist the ref by pointing out foul play, or whether you feel his input should be limited to discreet Knock-On signals, alerting the ref when the oppo weren't 10m at a quick tap - in short the extent to which you feel he should be allowed to go beyond both the RFU regs and the iRB laws.

Do you have any guidance from your Society that would assist those who aspire to L.5 as to what is expected here?

 

[Drift]

Have seen too many refs with over inflated egos telling the AR "Just wave the flag when it is in touch and leave the rest to me."

A lot of junior clubs here, or lower teams in bigger clubs, have somebody who goes around with the team week in and week out running the line. They can be ex players or even ex refs (don't it myself when watching son playing) who may just be able to assist a ref who is prepared to have a little chat before the game.

Advice I give to grass roots ref is to avoid making assumptions - have a chat with TJ before the game - but of course don't believe everything you are told !!

9/10 the club "volunteer" usually only shows up a couple of minutes before kick off so you don't really have time for a proper AR chat. I generally say to my volunteer ARs "Thanks for your help, it was very good" sometimes I will throw them a knock on call or something (that I have seen but will double check) to make sure they are watching and they think they are important but at the end of the day all I really want them to do is raise their flags when the ball is out of play and when it has gone through the posts for a kick at goal. If you want anything more from them then you are just kidding yourself.

 

[Dixie]

A lot of junior clubs here, or lower teams in bigger clubs, have somebody who goes around with the team week in and week out running the line. They can be ex players or even ex refs (don't it myself when watching son playing) who may just be able to assist a ref who is prepared to have a little chat before the game.

I would add that last season, when operating as a Society ref at L.8, I was unappointed one week and went to watch the L.6 ref officiate the 1st XV at my local club. As one of the coaches was preparing to run the line, I offered to do that for him. In the second half, a punch-up occurred under my nose, and the ref, whom I knew well and who knew I was myself a Society ref, told me what he had seen and asked whether I had anything to add. I reminded him that I was unappointed, but he wanted the facts - so I gave him my view of a break-away scrap that had occurred away from the main dust-up that was demanding his attention at the time. On the basis of that, he issued a :norc: for the cheap shot I witnessed.

He was hauled over the coals for that by his Federation advisor, and told that he could not submit a sending-off report (as that function should properly rest with the AR who reported the issue, and there were no ARs). All my experience to date says that a TJ flags for touch and for kicks at goal. A referee will get into undesirable hot water if he takes it any further than that, and IMO the best practice is to resist the temptation.

 

[didds]

Interesting feedforward there Dixie.

IF there had been a systenm in place to officiallt appoint you once you were at the ground (ie 20 minutes before KO say), would the home club have been billed as I understand they are for refs? (If I have that wrong i apologise . Just interested.

didds