Messy lineout - saints v gloucester

[Jz558]

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/watch/full-match-northampton-saints-v-gloucester-rugby-round-18

Apologies but I cant mark the time on the video as the premiership site doesnt seem to have the facility but I'm interested in the lineout at around 30:50 game time or 105.30 video time.

I saw this whilst watching the game on tv and couldnt figure out what the ref gave the penalty for. It doesnt help that the commentator obviously thinks it is for the backs coming up too quickly, but having looked again it seems to me he gave it because the Northampton 2 starts from beyond the 15m line and is therefore offside.

No problem if that's his decision but I wanted to ask others opinion.

1. Given the Green 2 is stood pretty much next to the ref, wouldnt it have been better from a game management point of view to ask him to move before the throw to avoid having to penalise?

2. Why is the ref referring to Northampton declaring 6 players in the line? As far as I'm aware the defending side at a line-out has no requirement to declare numbers at all, their only obligation is not to exceed those of the throwing side

3. Given that the whole thing looks a mess and it appears from the commentators remarks that both backlines started encroaching too early wouldnt a retake have been more equitable?

 

[Phil E]

I'm not sure either.
He definitely signals offside in the lineout (not in the backs).
Hard to see but sounded/looked like the green player crossed the line of touch (not past the 15) and hadn't jumped for the ball so was offside in the line.
He then complains they only had 6 in the line, but that's their problem not the refs. Throwing team had 7 so 6 isn't illegal?

Northampton were woeful in that game and their lineouts had been all over the place all game, plus they got mullered in the scrums, so all their set pieces were failing.

 

[chbg]

First offence is probably White receiver joining the line-out late (making 8 when they had declared 7). Green backs move before the ball is thrown in. Green 2 is then outside the 15 before the ball leaves the thrower's hands (which are held back for some time): "beyond the 15 is off-side" states the referee.

It seems to be all too dynamic/messy for the referee to have advised Green 2 to get back on-side.

Whilst a reset might be appropriate in the Community Game (the 'dynamism' is unlikely to be as organised), it could be seen as a cop-out at higher levels.

 

[Balones]

Strictly speaking the first offence was probably G not having a receiver. The lineout was never really ‘set’, so difficult to adjudicate on whether there was late entry/leaving the line. (The latter is ignored anyway nowadays!) The tail end N player (receiver?) was just over 15M line before the throw so was liable for penalising. He moved even further in field after the ball was thrown but that’s not an offence. He was penalised for being off side before the ball was thrown. The N player was trying to argue that their player ended up overstepping the 15M line because G had put extra players in the line and N had tried to match them. Both the N player and the ref (IT) seemed to have missed the fact that G had eight in the line and no receiver.
I am often told by our professional refs that they tend to ignore early lifts and leaving the line before the throw because they have more important things to look for. This is the result when the basics are ignored.

 

[chbg]

But no team HAS to have a Receiver: "If a team elects to have a receiver" 18.16

 

[Balones]

But no team HAS to have a Receiver: "If a team elects to have a receiver" 18.16

Yes you are right. Mental cock-up when writing. I meant to say that the ‘offence’ was compounded by not having anyone to exchange places with in the first place. G clearly had not agreed who was to exchange or somebody forgot. But as I said the line was never really ‘set’ in the first place and there was movement still happening when the ball was thrown in.

 

[Jz558]

I thought the whole thing was a mess from start to finish and as Balones says is largely the result of the basics being ignored. If you were trying to highlight to a new ref all the things that could go wrong in a lineout you'd be hard pressed to come up with a better example. I keep hearing that professional refs have more important things to worry about at set pieces but rarely disclose what they are. How would those of you on here who are assessors debrief a more junior member of the society on this lineout?

 

[OB..]

[...]How would those of you on here who are assessors debrief a more junior member of the society on this lineout?

Once the ball has been thrown in, blow your whistle . "That was a mess. Too many simultaneous infringements. Sort yourselves out and we'll try again." Maybe list some of the infringements.

 

[Dickie E]

it's out of camera angle but I suspect white #10 may have come up early too prompting the defenders to do likewise

 

[Phil E]

The penalty is for the back man (green) at the lineout crossing the line of touch. You can see the referee indicate that he has crossed the line of touch.

Being beyond the 15m line at the start of the lineout is just a FK offence, not a penalty.
Going beyond the 15m line after the ball is thrown is allowed if the ball goes beyond the 15m, which it does.