More law trials

[Dickie E]

Law the players hate most in spotlight as World Rugby sanctions trial aimed at speeding up the game

World Rugby has sanctioned law trials during two matches in Queensland next month as the game looks for ways to get faster and increase…

www.theroar.com.au

 

[Jarrod Burton]

F me. lets keep fiddling at the edges and make referees work even harder and look like bigger prats.

• Five-second ruck (strict compliance from use it call) - already there, just enforce it
• 30-second scrum call from when mark is set - fine but isn't this already ELV?
• Penalty kicks (60-seconds)/conversions (90-seconds) - make conversions 60 seconds too. Then actually enforce it.
• Lineouts 30-seconds from when mark is set - who sets the mark - the referee or the AR because at higher levels its rarely the referee's
• 30-seconds to restart after conversion - or just hold time after a conversion until ready for the restart.
• Scrum 1st collapse – re-set if no clear sanction
• Scrum 2nd collapse – if no clear sanction, free kick to feeding team (tap only) - so the feeding team now has additional incentive to bugger around at the scrum. And do we wait until the non-feeding forwards get back to the mark after the collapse? Otherwise we effectively remove them from the contest even though they haven't infringed.
• Defending scrumhalf can’t go beyond midline of scrum (tap only) - stupid suggestion. Its a game of contest, not set piece prettiness. If the 9 can't play under pressure from the opposition, they shouldn't play.
• Line out - Only contested throws to lineout can be adjudicated as not straight - I've been wanting this for a couple of years. If the defenders choose not to contest a line-out they shouldn't be rewarded if the throw isn't straight.
• Only players within the lineout formation can join a maul formed at a lineout (penalty kick) - needs more thought. Does this mean that no-one else can join this maul ever or only the players in the lineout at the initial maul set up (which is already a law anyway). If only players in the LO can join the maul it will make it overpowered near the line. Mauls are becoming boring and are overpowered IMO.
• Focus on tackler not rolling, must make effort to roll immediately towards sideline - Or just enforce the current law set and get rid of slow rucks.
• Deliberate knock down - this should always have been the way this was interpreted. As the referee if we think it was a reasonable attempt at a catch that was botched, then get on with the match, if deliberately knocked on a PK, and if it kills a scoring opportunity it should be a YC.
• Advantage Law – three phases and then advantage over (territorial and tactical advantage consideration remains at referees’ discretion) - this is confusing - do we now only allow three phases or territorial/tactical. I can't see this having any real benefit in most circumstances, especially close to the line where some teams will be happy to kill the ball to stop a try (cough, AB, cough) given how reluctant international referees are at giving out YC for this compared to the rest of us.

 

[Dickie E]

often these press release things don't cover the detail but a few of my thoughts/questions:

1. the tap kick. Do we really need a new & different sanction? Can a team elect to take a scrum in lieu of the tap? Can a drop goal be taken immediately after the tap?

2. uncontested lineouts. What does "contested" actually mean? Is it lifting a player? If the thrower sees no intent to lift by the opposition, can he throw straight to his SH?

3. 3 phase advantage. If this applies to penalties, why would the non-offending ever try to gain advantage? Just knock the ball on and take the shot or kick for corner. And what actually is a "phase"? is it a collective term for T, R & M or something broader?

 

[chbg]

Are some of these being trialed to prove that they don't work?

 

[didds]

F me. lets keep fiddling at the edges and make referees work even harder and look like bigger prats.

• Five-second ruck (strict compliance from use it call) - already there, just enforce it
• 30-second scrum call from when mark is set - fine but isn't this already ELV?
• Penalty kicks (60-seconds)/conversions (90-seconds) - make conversions 60 seconds too. Then actually enforce it.
• Lineouts 30-seconds from when mark is set - who sets the mark - the referee or the AR because at higher levels its rarely the referee's
• 30-seconds to restart after conversion - or just hold time after a conversion until ready for the restart.
• Scrum 1st collapse – re-set if no clear sanction
• Scrum 2nd collapse – if no clear sanction, free kick to feeding team (tap only) - so the feeding team now has additional incentive to bugger around at the scrum. And do we wait until the non-feeding forwards get back to the mark after the collapse? Otherwise we effectively remove them from the contest even though they haven't infringed.
• Defending scrumhalf can’t go beyond midline of scrum (tap only) - stupid suggestion. Its a game of contest, not set piece prettiness. If the 9 can't play under pressure from the opposition, they shouldn't play.
• Line out - Only contested throws to lineout can be adjudicated as not straight - I've been wanting this for a couple of years. If the defenders choose not to contest a line-out they shouldn't be rewarded if the throw isn't straight.
• Only players within the lineout formation can join a maul formed at a lineout (penalty kick) - needs more thought. Does this mean that no-one else can join this maul ever or only the players in the lineout at the initial maul set up (which is already a law anyway). If only players in the LO can join the maul it will make it overpowered near the line. Mauls are becoming boring and are overpowered IMO.
• Focus on tackler not rolling, must make effort to roll immediately towards sideline - Or just enforce the current law set and get rid of slow rucks.
• Deliberate knock down - this should always have been the way this was interpreted. As the referee if we think it was a reasonable attempt at a catch that was botched, then get on with the match, if deliberately knocked on a PK, and if it kills a scoring opportunity it should be a YC.
• Advantage Law – three phases and then advantage over (territorial and tactical advantage consideration remains at referees’ discretion) - this is confusing - do we now only allow three phases or territorial/tactical. I can't see this having any real benefit in most circumstances, especially close to the line where some teams will be happy to kill the ball to stop a try (cough, AB, cough) given how reluctant international referees are at giving out YC for this compared to the rest of us.

generally agree but reservations over...

• Line out - Only contested throws to lineout can be adjudicated as not straight - I've been wanting this for a couple of years. If the defenders choose not to contest a line-out they shouldn't be rewarded if the throw isn't straight.
  
  what constitutes a contested throw? A rear player jumping unaided - and how high?? the ball may well have not come near the jumper but HAD it done so they MAY have been able to contest. Thus leaving the likely front/middle ball catcher contestable on the ground and the squint throw requirement still needed.
  If you don't count that (silly!) lone rear "jumper" then what about a lifted contest in the middle to an actual front throw - contested on the ground? Does that count? Or a contested jump at the front, but the ball is thrown easily clear to the middle and contested on the ground?
  
  
  
• 30-seconds to restart after conversion - or just hold time after a conversion until ready for the restart.
  has to be hold time surely? Down at the community leve;l the ball cold have ended up in a field with a bull, stuck in a tree, or into a canal (regular at our ground where the canal runs adjacent to the main pitch)

 

[Ian_Cook]

"Penalty kicks (60-seconds)/conversions (90-seconds) - make conversions 60 seconds too"

Disagree with this one.

For a PK the clock starts when the kicker has the ball already in their hands has either indicated to kick at goal or the kicking tee arrives The ball is very often near the play (and therefore, near the mark) and the kicker invariably either has the ball in his possession at the mark, or is not far away.

However, for a conversion, the clock starts the moment the try is scored, and the kicker could be nowhere near the where the ball is. What if its a length of the field intercept try, and the goal kicker was under a pile of bodies in a maul or a ruck, 90m away at the other end of the field?

 

[didds]

Just stop the clock after 60 seconds then for a conversion.

 

[Dickie E]

"Penalty kicks (60-seconds)/conversions (90-seconds) - make conversions 60 seconds too"

Disagree with this one.

For a PK the clock starts when the kicker has the ball already in their hands has either indicated to kick at goal or the kicking tee arrives The ball is very often near the play (and therefore, near the mark) and the kicker invariably either has the ball in his possession at the mark, or is not far away.

However, for a conversion, the clock starts the moment the try is scored, and the kicker could be nowhere near the where the ball is. What if its a length of the field intercept try, and the goal kicker was under a pile of bodies in a maul or a ruck, 90m away at the other end of the field?

standard practice is/should be try scorer brings ball back with him/her/them

 

[Stu10]

A lot of these trial laws are current! As said above, they just need to be enforced more consistently.

Regarding the uncontested line-out, how to manage when the hooker fires the ball straight to the person at the front of the lineout... this is rarely straight at present, but also happens so quickly the defending team won't have opportunity to jump and appear to be contesting.

I also wonder if we might see more deliberate knock-ons if the punishment is reduced, especially if it stops a try... if it stops a try, would a penalty try be awarded, and would a yellow card be awarded associated with the penalty try decision rather than the deliberate knock-on infringement?

 

[crossref]

generally agree but reservations over...

• Line out - Only contested throws to lineout can be adjudicated as not straight - I've been wanting this for a couple of years. If the defenders choose not to contest a line-out they shouldn't be rewarded if the throw isn't straight.
  
  what constitutes a contested throw? A rear player jumping unaided - and how high?? the ball may well have not come near the jumper but HAD it done so they MAY have been able to contest. Thus leaving the likely front/middle ball catcher contestable on the ground and the squint throw requirement still needed.
  If you don't count that (silly!) lone rear "jumper" then what about a lifted contest in the middle to an actual front throw - contested on the ground? Does that count? Or a contested jump at the front, but the ball is thrown easily clear to the middle and contested on the ground?
  
  
  
• 30-seconds to restart after conversion - or just hold time after a conversion until ready for the restart.
  has to be hold time surely? Down at the community leve;l the ball cold have ended up in a field with a bull, stuck in a tree, or into a canal (regular at our ground where the canal runs adjacent to the main pitch)

Teams will lift one player somewhere just to ensure that the oppo throw straight, and to get the benefit if it's crook

 

[didds]

Teams will lift one player somewhere just to ensure that the oppo throw straight, and to get the benefit if it's crook

that's my point.
so if they lift at the rear for a front throw does that count? If so, what about a lone jumper at the back 9ie doesn't take out two lifters" ? He/She has still jumped.

Then how high must the lone jumper jump? 1 m? 10 cm?

 

[Balones]

Can we send a link to this website to WR? It would save them a lot of time and effort.

 

[crossref]

that's my point.
so if they lift at the rear for a front throw does that count? If so, what about a lone jumper at the back 9ie doesn't take out two lifters" ? He/She has still jumped.

Then how high must the lone jumper jump? 1 m? 10 cm?

for me - if I see anyone being lifted then I expect the throw to be straight.

 

[Dickie E]

So for a quickly taken lineout (ie before opponents can react to the throw) ... straight to SH?

 

[Ian_Cook]

standard practice is/should be try scorer brings ball back with him/her/them

Yes, that's fine for some forms of try scoring, what about when its a kick ahead and the player forces a loose ball in-goal? Often the ball ends up bouncing away or getting kicked away. That might be OK in a stadium where there are advertising hoardings, but what about in the weeds where you can have half a dozen playing areas on a field?

I prefer what didds suggested, which is what they do in the NRL - the time goes off after 60 seconds but the kicker is allowed to complete his kick.

In fact, I would go even further than that. For kicks at goal, I would have the clock stopped the moment a try is scored, or in the case of a PK, when the kicker or captain signals the intent to kick for goal. The clock remains off until the restart at halfway or (for a missed PK) on the 22m.

Also, we could do away with the pointless Law that requires the same ball to be used for the conversion that was used to score the try. In the elite game, the kicker could just get a new ball from the ball boy.

 

[Balones]

Been suggesting time off for kicks at goal for years. The only downside given to me was that a side may take the time to have a rest if knackered and this would be unfair to the fitter side.

 

[Volun-selected]

I like the idea of stopping the clock to stop time wasting. My concern is I’m generally the timekeeper and ref, and the more times I have stop my countdown the more I risk missing to restart.
Rather embarrassing having to guesstimate the end based on the start time + play + a little bit for stoppages.

 

[crossref]

Stopping the clock is not a solution to the problem ..it's part of it, as it means nothing is going on, elapsed times continue to grow and the crowds and TV viewers are bored silly

 

[didds]

These law tyrials - these?

Law the players hate most in spotlight as World Rugby sanctions trial aimed at speeding up the game

World Rugby has sanctioned law trials during two matches in Queensland next month as the game looks for ways to get faster and increase…

www.theroar.com.au

If so this is a limited set of games in a quasi -elite setting, so the concerns about restarts within a set time limit when the ball has ended up in a field/canal/tree etc are probably redundant - ie they'll be played inside a stadium with ball boys etc

 

[Stu10]

Advantage Law – three phases and then advantage over (territorial and tactical advantage consideration remains at referees’ discretion)

Watching Quins vs Northampton right now... Northampton just had a penalty advantage with 1 minute 18 seconds and 9 (arguably 10) phases between infringement and whistle.