[Law] More new Laws?

Pegleg

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I went to WR to to get the changes from the horse's mouth, so to speak, only to find them available only as a PowerPoint presentation, not as a PDF. Limited to dial-up access I won't even try to download them.

Is there a PDF of the law updates? Written as law mods and not a summary?

I have a PDF from the WRU, PM me and I'll email it to you.
 

Dickie E


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[h=3]Ruck - Trial[/h]Law 16
A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler).
At this point the offside lines are created.
Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.


Scenario
*Tackle made.
*Support player of BC arrives & positions/parks himself over the ball.
*Defenders decide not to contest this Mono-Ruck, instead they observe the newly created offside lines [ & fan out]
* Whilst SH is weighing up his pass options the Park'r [under no counter ruck pressure] reaches down & picks up & go's.

OK, or not?



I'm confident that this will be OK. My reading of 'immediate' is that it can't happen after an opponent arrives. If the opponent never arrives, he can pick it up at any time.
 

Treadmore

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I'm confident that this will be OK. My reading of 'immediate' is that it can't happen after an opponent arrives. If the opponent never arrives, he can pick it up at any time.

You might be right but I really hope this is not the case.

Was it worded the same for the Mitre10(?)? And is that how it was interpreted?
 

Dickie E


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You might be right but I really hope this is not the case.

Why not? If defenders commit zero players to the ruck, then they only have themselves to blame.
 

Treadmore

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Why not? If defenders commit zero players to the ruck, then they only have themselves to blame.

I don't think - but don't know - that is what is intended. If it was intended it seems likely to introduce inconsistency and uncertainty without further clarification/law amendment.

In your scenario, the 1st player is in position and so creates a ruck and an offside line. I'll add in to this scenario an opponent who is now retiring but still offside. In ruck law this opponent can only put herself on side by getting behind the offside line. Now continue with your scenario, the 1st player remains the only person in the ruck, some time has elapsed and they now decide to pick up the ball. Is the retiring opponent still offside? Or in such a case do we now accept that it wasn't really a ruck in the first place, which I think we would do if the pick-up action had been immediate in time.

Elsewhere in the laws (which we all accept aren't written in perfectly nor to be interpreted literally etc etc) the use of "immediate" or "immediately" is generally associated with things that happen or must start to happen after a very short space of time. Interpreting it differently for this new ruck law trial seems unhelpful.
 

ChrisR

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Thanx, VM75 for raising this point. There is a bit of a contradiction here.

On one hand we should treat the mono-ruck as a ruck with the ruck ending when a player in an onside position retrieves the ball.

On the other hand the law specifically allows the ball to be picked up by the first arriving player, attacker or defender, until an opponent joins.

I think that until an opponent joins the ball should be available to be played in any manner and so the mono-ruck only sets offside lines.

This will ensure that defenders join or at least defend the channel directly behind the ruck.

The purpose of the law change is to prohibit defenders from having players behind the tackle. Before the change any player could play the ball by hand at a tackle no matter how long he had been parked over the ball.
 
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Dickie E


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Is the retiring opponent still offside?

Yes, because a ruck formed and therefore offside lines formed.

Think of it this way. There's a traditional ruck with 3 or 4 players from each team. Ball gets to the back of the ruck and the hindmost player breaks off, picks up the ball & runs. All good. Same with mono-ruck.
 

ChrisR

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What is the offside line for the side that hasn't a player in the mono-ruck? That side has no 'hind foot' to set the line.

Is it the hindmost (closest to goal) body part of the opponent or the ball?

If it's the ball then that would be a very good reason not to put a player in the ruck.
 

Treadmore

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Think of it this way. There's a traditional ruck with 3 or 4 players from each team. Ball gets to the back of the ruck and the hindmost player breaks off, picks up the ball & runs. All good. Same with mono-ruck.

Back to the tackle...:)
a player arrives legally and on feet and immediately (in time, as fast as they can) goes to pick-up the ball. In the tenth-of-a-second before they pick-up the ball off the ground have they created a mono-ruck (with off-side lines)? They have met the new criterion for the ruck but is that the intent of the new law?
 
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ChrisR

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Back to the tackle...:)
a player arrives legally and on feet and immediately (in time, as fast as they can) goes to pick-up the ball. In the tenth-of-a-second before they pick-up the ball off the ground have they created a mono-ruck (with off-side lines)? They have met the new criterion for the ruck but is that the intent of the new law?

Great question! If the answer is "yes" (a mono-ruck is instantly formed) then we've essentially created off-side lines at a tackle and trailing defenders would not be able to tackle the player who immediately picked up the ball.

I think we need to delay the mono-ruck until a player pauses over the ball.
 

Treadmore

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Great question! If the answer is "yes" (a mono-ruck is instantly formed) then we've essentially created off-side lines at a tackle and trailing defenders would not be able to tackle the player who immediately picked up the ball.

I think we need to delay the mono-ruck until a player pauses over the ball.

yeah would seem sensible for this law trial.

Now, the other issue is, having paused there, can the player in the mono-ruck pick-up the ball? Or is that hands-in ruck? Or is it only counted "hands-in ruck" if they have a scrum-half behind them?
 

ChrisR

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See my post #66.
 

ChrisR

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Only in my head! I'd like to see a WR document that answers these questions in a format that places them in the context of the current 2017 Laws.

I went to WR but their answer is a PowerPoint presentation that I can't use as I'm on dial-up.
 

Treadmore

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Only in my head! I'd like to see a WR document that answers these questions in a format that places them in the context of the current 2017 Laws.

I went to WR but their answer is a PowerPoint presentation that I can't use as I'm on dial-up.

I took out the videos in that PowerPoint (>200MB!) and it is here at only 240kB - should be ok for dial-up!
 

didds

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and so the next question is - how long is a pause...?

didds
 

ChrisR

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Think of a pause as being in interruption of motion rather than a period of time.

So if a support player comes to the tackle and , without stopping, scoops up the ball and continues forward then no mono-ruck and no off-side lines.

If the support player halts over the ball then the mono-ruck has formed. If a jackler comes in for the ball then a mono-ruck has formed unless he too scoops the ball without halting.
 
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ChuckieB

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A still I have cropped from the powerpoint.

The text book application of the offside line being set. Ruck formed, referee sets the Offside line (by reference to something/somebody who knows what) and SH (rather than rucking players) coming in and doing a text book pick up and distribution.

And that's as good as it gets from WR! One example from the U20 RWC that will help all this confusion just melt away!


Capture.JPG
 

Ian_Cook


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What is the offside line for the side that hasn't a player in the mono-ruck? That side has no 'hind foot' to set the line.

Is it the hindmost (closest to goal) body part of the opponent or the ball?

If it's the ball then that would be a very good reason not to put a player in the ruck.

I had a chat to a local referee who had seen the changes ahead of time and he had asked the same question.

The answer he got was a bit vague, but it seems that when a player enters the tackle on his feet to form a ruck, a line through the back his hindmost feet is his team's offside line, and the line through the tackle gate on his opponent's side of the tackle is the opponent's ruck offside line, until an opponent joins, then that player's feet mark the offside line

And for those asking if this wording is like the Mitre 10 cup, the answer is no. While they also had one player form a ruck, there was no gate as such. the offside line was the ball, and players could enter from anywhere in a 180° semicircle on their own side of that line. That resulted in a mess, with the only benefit being that players mostly tended to stay on their feet (very upright) to try to either kick the ball through or win it by hooking it back.

In this case, the gate still exists. Team mates of the mono-ruck former will have to join alongside him and from behind him. The first opponet will have to arrive through the gate and subsequent opponents will have to join alongside him or whoever is the hindmost player.

Frankly, I think this "the game is turning into League " bollocks is just OTT scaremongering. I watched all four Super Rugby quarter finals this weekend.

Total numbers of breakdown turnovers across all four matches = 118 (30, 29, 28 and 31 over the four games in that order.)

Of those, the total number of breakdown turnovers from tackle assists and jacklers arriving and pilfering ball (or winning a PK through the tackled player not releasing) = 85

The numbers of breakdown turnovers from tacklers getting to their feet and, pilfering ball (or winning a PK through the tackled player not releasing) = 5

I don't think making the tackler go through the gate is going to make the dramatic, "end of the game as we know it" difference that some are claiming.
 
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ChuckieB

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and so the next question is - how long is a pause...?

didds

Well I'd be so bold as to suggest what Nathan Hughes did against Ireland (crept forward while still "touching" the ball, to then pick and go) would now be out!
 
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