More U11 Kicking madness

[David Martin]

I've been to 3 festivals in the last 3 weeks and have played 3 different sets of rules all based around the new kicking rules of play.

Is there any chance of some help clearing up the rules with yes/no and a some explanations as there appears to be some confusion around the definition of a free kick,restarts and open play kicking.

1. With a free kick, the player can choose to kick to themselves and then run with it or pass it to a team mate?
2. With a free kick, the player can kick to touch on the full and then the kicking team restarts play where the ball goes out of play.
3. From a restart, the drop kick bounces in play then goes off at the side, the defending team then gets the ball back with a scrum on half way.
4. A kick is charged down and the ball goes forward and out of play without hitting the ground, a scrum is given to the non kicking team where the kick was blocked.
5. All attempts to catch the ball result in the defending team getting the put in at the scrum, whether its from the restart, a free kick or open play.

Any help with whether these are correct or not would be really helpful as we have our home festival. I have my own opinions on them, but would like to discuss them with you guys.

Many thanks

Dave

 

[didds]

The people to ask would be the RFU, or more specifically the department that handles the junior regs. Many years ago when the RFU website had an excellent forum - its where I firt "met" OB amongst others - there was a specific forum for junior AG rugby, and a guy there (whose name I confess to having forgotten) whilst having no official clout did act by acceptance of the RFU as a conduit for the coal face coaches and this body. He moved on with a change in job etc and the rfu forums died a death following the website redesign.

There maybe localised FB groups (eg Area 2) but on the whole other than bombarding your RDO, there's very little way I perceive for these sort of issues to get to those that "need to know".

that all said - the issue again with new regs etc ius that once they are eventually published fro a season, many coaches and possibly even clibs may not ever see any follow-ups or changes of regs. The fact that three different festivals have all ended up with three different interpretations is a "bit of a worry" as it either means the regs are just confusing, or festival organisers are STILL making up their own rulkes and regs unchallenged (and unchallengeable?!).

Put another way... (and with sympathy for your position!)... the best you can hope from here are some thoughts from referees and a few coaches, but it won't be "definitive". And many of the referees here don;t typically referee mini/midi age group rugby - and many aren't even in RFUland.


didds

 

[didds]

and my 2p?

Unless there some specific excelsions/alternative spublished in the U11 NRoP, numbers 2, 3 & 4 seem totally out of kilter with the way the game's laws normally work.

i.e.

2) FK cannot be kicked direct to touch outside of a team's "22" (AG rugby has smaller areas of course). I appreciate there is potential confusion here though with the term "Free Kick" versus "Penalty Kick", so this may be something covered by NRoP specifically.

3) the laws normally only require the ball to travel 10m and not go out on the full. The OP's description fits this.

4) charge downs are not knock ons so scrums are not available, and KO into touch doesn't exist. In the OP this can only be a lineout - potentially in line with the charge down if it happened outside of the "22". If U11 NRoP do not have LOs then maybe a scrum, but I;'d expect it to be in line with the line of touch

Items 1 & 5 I would ex-pect to be definitively covered by NRoP.

didds

 

[OB..]

PM to Anthony Goodman?

 

[AntonyGoodman]

Hi David,

1. Yes

2. No, standard free kick rules apply (other that that the "22" is actually 15m).

3. No, the defending team only get the scrum option if the ball goes out on the full (assuming the ball has gone 7m before going out). In your scenario, the defending team would get a free pass 5m in from touch in line with where the ball went out.

4. No, a charge down is not a knock on. so in your scenario the kicking team would have a free pass 5m in from touch in line with where the ball went out.

5. No, only kicks from open play are treated in this way. Kicks from the restart or free kicks, normal knock on rules apply.

Hope this all helps, let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,

Antony

 

[David Martin]

Many many thanks Anthony.

ive had all sorts of problems getting these points accross. Looks like I'm thinking the same way.

And not many people are understanding that we have free kicks and not penalties in the u11s.

Ive had the following.

1. I awarded a free kick on Sunday, and the child asked me if he could kick it to himself, I said yes, and he did so. The coaches/parents of the defending team were somewhat bewildered with my decision. I explained it was a free kick and he was entitled to run with the ball and not Kick it away.
2. All sorts of issues with this being interpreted as a penalty. It's lead to a largely kicking based game with every free kick being launched long straight out of touch to get the territory and possession. Our festival on Sunday will follow normal free kick rules.
3. It seems that all restarts have been interpreted that the ball has stay on the pitch or its deemed the same as kicking beyond the dead ball line. Very frustrating for the children who can kick accurately into space.
4. The charge down on Sunday was classed as a catch attempt and e ball was taken back off of the kicking team and given as a put in at the scrum to the defending team. I was slightly bemused by this.
5. We've seen it as open play only.

Looks like the refs briefing will will be a long session on Sunday.

Thank you you all for the help.

Dave

 

[Phil E]

Last Sunday at U11 I saw a mark given from the kick off

 

[AntonyGoodman]

Hi David,

Did you not get any help from last years U11 coaches to get you up and running for the new season?

For your festival I would suggest have a few copies of the NRoP printed out and available for those people who want to "discuss" any points after your briefing (or after a game).

I was out and about for my previous post so didn't have the rules to hand, but for completeness here are the relevant sections of the U11 NRoP for your points (all bold words are my emphasis):

1. [LAWS]5.b)A free kick is a kick from the hand. This can either be a tap by the player to them self, or a kick to gain ground. Opponents must be 7 metres back, towards their own goal line.[/LAWS]

2. [LAWS]9.b) If the ball is kicked from outside of the 22 metre line (15m) directly into touch, a free pass is awarded to opposing team in line with where the ball was kicked and 5 metres in from the touchline, unless the non-kicking team elects to take a quick throw-in, in accordance with 9(g).[/LAWS]

and

[LAWS]10.a) If the ball is kicked from within the 22 by the defending team and goes directly into touch, a free pass will be awarded to the non kicking team 5 metres in from the touchline, level with where the ball crossed the touchline. If the ball had been passed back into the“22” by the defending team and there had been no subsequent ruck, maul, tackle or the ball had touched an opposition player, the free pass will be level with where the ball was kicked.[/LAWS]

3. [LAWS]4.d)If the ball does not travel 7 metres or is played by the kicking team before reaching 7 metres or is kicked directly into touch, the non kicking team will have the choice of:i. A throw in to a scrum at the centre of the half way line.ii. The kick to be re-taken[/LAWS]

4. [LAWS]9.d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team from where the ball is touched.[/LAWS]

5. [LAWS]9.d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team from where the ball is touched.[/LAWS]

Thanks,

Antony

 

[AntonyGoodman]

Last Sunday at U11 I saw a mark given from the kick off

FFS can these people not read!

[LAWS]9.c) A mark may be made anywhere on the pitch, with a clean catch direct from an opponent’s kick, other than from a restart or a freekick. For a successful mark, the referee will award a free kick to the catcher’s team.[/LAWS]

Thanks,

Antony

 

[David Martin]

I think the main issue is the wording of 5b and the use of the words. "Gain ground". Some coaches are not getting the lack of penalties and see it as a chance to gain ground and then regain the free pass.

I do do wonder if they actually read the nrop sometimes.

Interestingly there is no mention in any of the laws for u11s that mentions the kicking team getting the ball back after a kick to touch. I'm not sure where that comes from apart from applying the adult game and penalties to the children's game.

is is there any particular reason why a high tackle is a free pass and not a free kick? It seems to have been singled out when a free kick is awarded for foul play.

a mark off of the restart is comedy gold.

 

[AntonyGoodman]

Hi David,

Yes, agree the words "gain ground" do not help in this situation.

Re the high tackle, I have never had a satisfactory explanation on that one. Just the way it is, it is not really a problem.

This really should not be a problem if coaches from the previous year (U12) came to the U11's and explained how the rules work, they will have already gone through your pain, contacted the RFU, or discovered how the rules are to be interpreted from other experienced people (This is the third year the the U11 NRoP have been in wide use, so there should be plenty of people who know the answers to your questions).

Good luck with your festival, let us know how you got on.

Thanks,

Antony

 

[David Martin]

Many thanks for the time and help, it's really helped a lot. I'm putting together a little rule sheet highlighting the main points, so I don't forget really and will definitely have the rules printed out.

Unfortunately the age groups seem to keep themselves to themselves, and this appears common across the clubs we've played against. As no one seems to know what the rules actually are.

We had the same last year in the u10s with the clarification of the maul, the first few festivals we had a wide ranging set of scenarios, the best was with 6 children against 2 traveling the whole length of the field. Asking the ref to clarify the rules at half time seemed to make things worse - lol

But I think I'll recommend that we should have a NROP guru at the club that could help each age group, as this seems crazy.

 

[crossref]

Many thanks for the time and help, it's really helped a lot. I'm putting together a little rule sheet highlighting the main points, so I don't forget really and will definitely have the rules printed out.

Unfortunately the age groups seem to keep themselves to themselves, and this appears common across the clubs we've played against. As no one seems to know what the rules actually are.

We had the same last year in the u10s with the clarification of the maul, the first few festivals we had a wide ranging set of scenarios, the best was with 6 children against 2 traveling the whole length of the field. Asking the ref to clarify the rules at half time seemed to make things worse - lol

But I think I'll recommend that we should have a NROP guru at the club that could help each age group, as this seems crazy.

your club should have a Ref Coordinator who would do things like this (as well as encouraging people to become refs and helping them to arrange training etc, and other duties)

be careful about asking too loudly who this is in your club ... I'd say there's an excellent chance you'll find yourself appointed!

 

[Dan_A]

Anthony has covered off everything very comprehensively. One thing to add though on your 3rd question that helped me when I was doing u11s. The phrase "directly into touch" caused some confusion as coaches and parents who had bothered to read the NROP wouldn't have found this term defined. In case it's useful the answer is that the NROP specifically says "Any terms defined in these Rules shall have the meanings set out in the World Rugby Laws of the Game".

And World Rugby 13.8 gives the definition:-

13.8 Ball goes directly into touch

The ball must land in the field of play. If it is kicked directly into touch the opposing team has three choices:

• To have the ball kicked off again, or
• To have a scrum at the centre and they have the throw-in, or
• To accept the kick.

If they accept the kick, the lineout is on the half way line. If the ball is blown behind the half way line and goes directly into touch, the lineout is at the place where it went into touch.

 

[imcx]

I was coaching & refereeing U11 last year (in a county where this was the 1st year of NROP for U11s) and agree with AntonyGoodman's post. However, at some festivals the refs briefing often produced a different conclusion with many not having read the "other than from ..." bit. (It didn't help that there were several changes made to the U11 rules right before the season started.)

On the restart after a high-tackle, I understood the reason for it being a free-pass is that, unlike a free-kick, there is no option to take it quickly. This provides the referee with the opportunity to remind players there and then about safe tackling.

 

[AntonyGoodman]

On the restart after a high-tackle, I understood the reason for it being a free-pass is that, unlike a free-kick, there is no option to take it quickly. This provides the referee with the opportunity to remind players there and then about safe tackling.

Yes, i have heard this too, but if this was the case, why not foul play as well?

Antony

 

[Dixie]

5. [LAWS]9.d) Other than from a restart, a free kick or charge down, if from a kick the ball is played in flight by a player of the non-kicking team and knocked forward, a scrum will be awarded to the non-kicking team from where the ball is touched.[/LAWS]

So if a player knocks on while trying to catch his opponent's kick on the full, he wins his team a scrum? Can anyone explain the thinking behind that? Is it to discourage tactical kicking?

 

[AntonyGoodman]

Two things:

1) Promote the kick into space, not aimless kicking
2) Promote the attempt to catch the ball on the full without fear of reprisal.

Worth mentioning, this only lasts for one season when kicking from open play first appears (U11).

Thanks,

Antony

 

[David Martin]

Yep I can see that happening as I'm already the club coach coordinator and am trying to get more refs in the club.

I can see this doubling up as a nrop person too.

At least I can say I haven't been warned.

 

[David Martin]

Thanks Dan A. That will help greatly on Sunday.